Episode 8

full
Published on:

29th May 2025

Crossing The Angelic Defendant

Hosts Steve Hohman and Olivia Espinosa are joined by personal injury attorney Susie Injijian, as well as actor and writer Sara Taylor.

Watch as Susie cross-examines Sara, portraying a sympathetic kindergarten teacher whose vehicle struck a Guatemalan-born pedestrian.

Listen in as Susie challenges Sara, and we break down how to confront bias in the courtroom.

What’s covered in this episode: 

  • Talking ‘money grab’ and other biases in voir dire
  • Who to call to the stand when the damages aren’t visible
  • How to keep a crying witness from derailing your cross
  • The tech savvy way to make sure your word choice sticks
  • What you need to know to blow your witness’ testimony out of the water 

Time Stamps

00:00 What’s Cross Lab?

4:38 The importance of being in a plaintiff friendly county—and how to figure that out

8:13 Broaching the “b-word” in voir dire

16:35 What to do when your client’s damages aren't visible

24:15 Mock Case Overview: Lopez vs Maddison

30:29 Susie’s Cross: Crossing an “angelic” defendant

49:02 How to handle (and stay in control of) when the water works start

1:19:52 The key touchstones that will help you flip your witness

1:27:18 Top takeaways if you had to cross a witness like this

To get free resources for your next trial go to HausImprov.com

Transcript
Speaker:

And now that we have a jury, you accept that this accident and the damages caused were all

your fault.

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Yes, within the last couple of days, yes.

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Thank you, that's all I have.

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I don't know if I went long enough, did I go long enough?

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That was perfect.

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It was like just 14 minutes.

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dear.

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I don't think you could go any longer.

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It be a murder and then we'd have another case on our hands because of the murder that you

caused to this poor witness.

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We're not just trial consultants.

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been cross-examined over 1,500 times in cross simulations to help train and coach some of

the world's top trial attorneys.

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through live witness sparring, we'll test constructive cross techniques, share fresh

insights, and explore new strategies.

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And even though the testimony may be fake, the trial skills?

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Totally real.

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So let's experiment, discover what works, and have some fun in CrossLab.

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The show is brought to you by Trial House Consulting and powered by LawPods.

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Welcome to CrossLab.

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I'm Steve Holman.

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And I'm Olivia Espinosa.

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First off, we need to be honest.

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We're not lawyers and we're not going to talk about the law.

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Specifically, we are focused on storytelling and how you make your witness and jury feel

through what has been famously called constructive cross.

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We call it a yes and cross.

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Basically, it's the strategy of making the opposing witness a tool to tell your case

narrative.

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And if you've ever watched or listened to CrossLab before, you know that we designed a

test case that sparks ideas, word choice, and questions that you can use for your next

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deposition or trial.

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and I, in past episodes, also simulate the cross-examination witnesses.

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But for this episode, we've got a guest mock witness who will be sparring against our

attorney.

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So let's introduce them and get started.

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Okay, joining us today we have Suzy Njiji and she is here for a second time in the cross

lab.

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She's an award-winning trial attorney based in Berkeley in the San Francisco Bay area

representing plaintiffs exclusively in personal injury and wrongful death cases.

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You might've recently seen her on TLU's case analysis discussing her case that led to a

huge $25.5 million verdict.

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Welcome Suzy.

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Thank you, it's great to be here.

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So happy to have you back.

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also have Sarah.

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Sarah Taylor is here as our guest performer to play the part of our defendant in today's

test case.

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Sarah is an actor, a writer, and a stage manager based in Los Angeles.

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She's an acting graduate from Emerson College, and she loves all aspects of storytelling

and has actually been helping us in our cross-club classes recently, offering really great

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insight to our participants.

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We're so happy to have you here, Sarah.

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Happy to be here, thanks for having me.

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Well, welcome Susie and Sarah.

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Before we jump into our mock case, we wanna actually have a discussion about what this

case is kind of about today.

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Yeah, so this mock case we're tackling today involves a plaintiff who is an immigrant male

and a defendant who is a young white female.

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So in this case, there could be multiple biases that could be a factor.

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And so before we jump into that cross, we want to just have a conversation about facing

that head on, things that might come up, and building a strategy that can give your client

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the best chance to be seen and their story to be told clearly.

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And in general, what to do when you're asking for real damages against a sympathetic

defendant.

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So, Suzy, you just did a big trial in the Bay Area, a blue-collar worker.

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And did you find that bias played a role in any way in that particular trial?

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Well, I think it's always there and you have to deal with it uh right away in jury

selection.

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So the voir dire is really crafted to elicit any expressions of bias in your potential

jurors and to make sure that any who are likely to sort of discount

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the damages of your client because of his ethnicity or demographic place in society, that

those people are not on your jury.

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And Alameda County is a pretty good place for that.

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We have a diverse population and an increasingly uh technologically savvy population.

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We have Silicon Valley nearby and people who work there and in San Francisco really love

to live in the East Bay.

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in Berkeley where I am, and in other towns in the East Bay, it's just uh for lifestyle,

it's great.

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So we had a lot of intelligent people on our jury and it wasn't as big a problem in this

case as it would be in many other venues in the state or in the country.

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You know, when you're talking about obviously the geography of where you were, uh it makes

me want to ask you how drastically does your geographic location of a trial influence your

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expectations for personal injury verdict?

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does, I mean, you basically have to decide when you file your complaint what jurisdiction

you want to be in.

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And as a plaintiff's attorney, if you have a choice, then you're going to do that analysis

and you're going to pick the jurisdiction where you think the jury pool is going to be

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more favorable to plaintiffs.

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And sometimes there is a fight about that, where the defense will, if they can, put you in

federal court.

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And if they do that, then you've got

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the federal court jury being pulled from various counties within the district.

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So um if it's oh the Northern District of California, you don't just get the East Bay, you

also get San Francisco, and you get some conservative counties um that are also included

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in that district.

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So that's one example.

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And then another example is when the um plaintiff picks a favorable forum and then the

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the defense comes in and says, we belong in this other court where there more conservative

jurors.

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fact, I experienced that in an aviation case many years ago when McDonnell Douglas was

based in St.

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Louis.

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And apparently, there is one half of St.

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Louis is very working class and the other half

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is uh upper class and more affluent.

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And we had filed in the working class.

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And there was a big fight with all these aviation defense lawyers, a whole mob of them,

trying to get us in the other part of St.

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Louis.

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uh And not knowing anything about St.

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Louis, I sort of, I walked into that and had to make the argument to the court that we had

filed in the correct county.

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Or part of, uh I guess the county was divided.

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I still don't know how that worked, but.

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That's how important it is to be in a Plano-friendly county.

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Wow, so how did that end up working out for you?

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We won.

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was especially fun because I was just by myself and I basically had to, you know, ice

skate to court, which I'm a Californian and I don't know where I was in my pumps.

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And there were all these defense lawyers in the courtroom and the judge, you know,

listened to me.

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And so we prevailed and it was, that's why I remember it so well because it was a fun

appearance.

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Yes, wow.

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I mean, I was actually gonna, when I introduced you, I forgot to say, like, you're a

badass.

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You really, really are.

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Like, when I think of badass lawyer, I think of you because of just the...

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And you even said it in this particular case that you were talking about.

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um In that jurisdiction, like, you are up against multiple people.

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And in fact, with the recent case uh in Berkeley, you were up against multiple

corporations, right?

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Yeah, yeah, well there were three defense firms against me.

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And I did the whole case myself, em except for a very brief time I had recruited a friend

to co-counsel with me, but then she couldn't do the trial.

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And so I brought my son in to do the trial.

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And he was recently out of law school, but he was a great asset em and nobody knew we were

related.

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So that was awful fun.

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Yeah, we did a, we actually on our last CROSS Lab episode, we did an episode where we had

a couple of father son teams and they talked about sort of, you know, what it's like to do

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that too.

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So yes, absolutely.

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So when we go back to sort of that conversation about your jury members, how do you

approach that to kind of get those biases or potential biases out?

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How do you kind of broach those subjects?

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Well, there's kind of two things.

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The one is, has to do with the ethnicity.

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um And you, that's a tough one.

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I mean, I know that some people will get up there and they will talk about um how we all

harbor biases.

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You're not really going to get anybody to admit to um being biased against uh Latin

Americans or against people of color or women even.

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You're not going to get them to say that.

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So you really have to.

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Do your homework in terms of focus groups and get an idea of what interests oh people are

going to talk about if they are less likely to be biased and what they're going to talk

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about if they are more likely to be biased against your plaintiff.

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So it's become very refined.

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um We do a lot of data studying before we go to trial.

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So you come in with that knowledge um and you ask your questions accordingly.

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The other big bias is against lawyers asking for big numbers and um asking for big numbers

for people who earn a minimum wage or who aren't really rich.

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And there's some more dear, some jury selection lines of questioning where you can ask

people, do you think that, you know, Bill Gates' life um is worth more than, um you know,

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the guy who does your garden?

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um And so we can ask questions like that and get a lot of information.

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And also sort of let the jury understand that, if they really think that Bill Gates life

is worth more or someone else who's really rich, it makes them wonder, well, what is that

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based on and is that fair?

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So it's kind of a nice process.

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Do you find that even with all that research that there, and it goes into what you're

saying about is Bill Gates life more important than uh your landscaper or somebody doing a

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minimum wage job?

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Do you find that in our just overall, you're working with juries in any case that there is

a bit of a bias against blue collar or working class people versus

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a white collar profession, people with white collar professions.

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Is that something that you have to fight against?

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Well, I think because there is the money grab bias.

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There is that thought that, and this was really uh sort of promoted by so-called tort

reform in the 80s and the 90s.

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We heard a lot more about it then.

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It's more subtle now, but the idea is that personal injury lawsuits are a money grab and

they are people trying to get something for nothing, trying to get rich off of their

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misfortune.

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m you know, faking, exaggerating, because here's their, you know, here's their chance.

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So if you have a blue collar worker, um someone who has struggled financially, then you

know, there's that motive, right?

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They, it's sort of promoted by the defense that that motive exists more prominently in

someone like that than in somebody who is really wealthy.

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I was just going to say, kind of rolls into that idea of uh thinking about blue collar

people having more personal responsibility or less deserving uh because of where they are

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in earnings versus a white collar person and their level of deservingness or personal

responsibility that plays into the juror's mind.

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Well, I think you're right.

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uh And I also think that these biases can exist in people of all walks of life.

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um So you can have these biases among blue collar workers.

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In fact, it's quite common where you have in my recent trial, we had a self-employed

electrician who was injured on a job.

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His hands were on the tools when they exploded.

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so a big uh

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bias that we had to overcome was, well, he was the only electrician there and it must have

been his fault or some aspect of this must have been his fault.

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And in our jury research, we learned that self-employed people who were just scraping by

with their businesses were most critical of him.

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And part of that is because they don't want to believe that this could ever happen to

them.

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they believe that they're always safe and they take all the right precautions.

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And so if he got injured, he mustn't have been taking all the right precautions.

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And yet there were people who were working in big corporations earning sizable salaries

and their oh jury service was being paid for, or they weren't losing any money serving on

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the jury.

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They were more sympathetic because they were used to the idea that there are

organizational divisions that

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take care of safety and they rely on that and they want, they believe that people should

be able to rely on that.

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So those people ended up actually being better for us as jurors than people who were in

the same socioeconomic status as my client.

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We actually got to work with you a little bit on the prep for that case.

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And I remember when you first discussed that case with us and it was in a group setting

and we heard the basic facts of the case.

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I remember going, God, this is a really tough case.

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don't know how Susie's gonna get to where she wants to go.

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And I remember it was that same bias in me of that personal responsibility that's been

drilled into us.

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You mentioned it before, you know, it's the hot coffee in the lap thing from the eighties

that's been drilled into us systematically for the last three decades about personal

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responsibility.

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And like you said, the money grab.

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So I was even thinking about where, you know, where we were at that moment until we

learned more about the case and my thoughts evolved on it very quickly.

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And I understood where are you gonna go with that case?

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But it's amazing how you can even

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recognize those biases in yourself, even when you're open-minded and, you know, I was in

service of you, of course.

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So it's just interesting.

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I don't know if there was a question, but I just find it interesting that on even thinking

about the way I thought about that case in the beginning to where I evolved to, uh it's, I

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think, indicative of, you know, our society in America.

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Well, you make a very good point.

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In fact, there are lawyers who, when they're given the latitude in jury selection in voir

dire, they will actually be a little bit confessional like that and talk about how, well,

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when this first case first came to me, you know, these are the biases that I, I surprised

myself that I had them, that I entertained these thoughts.

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And it was only when I saw the facts that I overcame them.

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Now, you're not allowed to do that in jury selection, but you know, uh

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we push the envelope where we can.

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And I've never seen it done, but I've heard from lawyers who have done this.

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And they do it in order to get the jury members to feel comfortable to fess up themselves

to their own biases and to get that dialogue going.

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And it can be very effective.

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But you're right.

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We all have biases.

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And that's one thing that we try in various ways to communicate to the jury during voir

dire to make them

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feel comfortable to own up to theirs and then we're able to say to them, you know, so does

this mean that maybe another case would be better for you that you couldn't be entirely

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impartial in deciding this case?

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And that's okay if that's true.

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And if he says, yeah, I can't be entirely impartial, then under the code, he must be

dismissed for cause, he or she, or they.

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What about in terms of biases even potentially with, you know, injuries that are more

visible or invisible and subjective, like pain or trauma, MTBI's, especially when those

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injuries, you know, don't come with maybe dramatic imaging or overt symptoms.

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Have you ever tried a case with that or how would you approach that particular biases?

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Yeah, juries are very interested in evidence and documentary evidence.

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And so it's always better to have um radiographic imaging, medical imaging, particularly

the type that is widely accepted.

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That's the gold standard, CTs, MRIs.

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There's lots of other types of imaging available now that plaintiff's lawyers are using,

but they're also under attack by defendant doctors who say, that's just experimental and

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it's not dispositive.

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and so forth.

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um So it is always better to get the documentation.

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But bottom line, you really need to tell a story, whether the damages are visible or not.

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You need to tell a story of before and after.

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And you do that um through your client and through their treating physicians.

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uh Ideally, they're going to be very supportive and also um

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good at testifying and explaining the medicine.

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But you most importantly do it through other people, what we call before and after

witnesses.

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And it could be family members and even better if they are people, I mean, I've heard

people bringing in the Starbucks barista who saw the plaintiff every morning until the

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accident and then was able to testify to the change that

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he or she saw in them.

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I wanna go back to discussing the idea of deserving this, because I think there is a place

to that.

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I don't think it's all like just uh a bad thing, because it can help shape your story as

well when you're thinking about your client, your plaintiff, uh and their journey with

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this, whatever the terrible uh incident was.

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I think there's a place of showing that they are deserving this.

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I think if you ignore that, that seems like it would be a detriment as well.

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Susie, how do you go about thinking about your clients and not just the before and after,

but thinking of them.

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we talk, you hear this all the time about the hero's journey.

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It's been very popular, but I mean, geez, any superhero movie, any big blockbuster, it has

the hero's journey.

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It's ingrained in us.

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How do you go about making it so your client seems gets over that, deserving this

question, and uh you can win over the jury on that matter?

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That's such a great question and thank you for bringing up the hero's journey because you

talked about it in some of the workshops that we did together when I was working up this

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particular case.

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And I think about it now with every plaintiff.

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What is my client's journey that will inspire my jury to want to join and support?

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so that's really where the inspiration for the award comes from.

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And, you know, it's going to be different in every case.

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Sometimes it's just going to be as simple as your client did not deserve to have this

happen to them and that it's a tremendous injustice.

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And so what you inspire the jury to do is to support your clients through, you know, in a

supplementary way because you present your client as somebody who has really worked hard

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to overcome.

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this terrible misfortune that was so needlessly uh thrust upon him, her, or them.

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So um it could be that simple.

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um In our case, we were very fortunate to have a real hero.

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I mean, this man had a rough upbringing.

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um was a single, he grew up in a home of a single mom.

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uh He was the eldest boy.

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He assumed the role of dad to his younger siblings.

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He was, and they lived in the projects in San Francisco.

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And his, the best witness we had was someone he met through Big Brothers of America.

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And this man knew him when he was 13.

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This man had just come back from fighting in Vietnam, had just graduated from law school.

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They had been friends for 50 years.

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And he, and as he put it, brothers.

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And so through this man,

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who was incredibly eloquent, I was able to really tell the jury about my client's hero's

journey m and where he had reached um this hardworking person with a really noble uh

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calling to be an electrician, to support his family, and to provide illumination to

people.

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um And it was what a great service.

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And this man was able to really um

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bring that whole story out.

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So we were lucky, but I believe that story exists with everyone.

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And if it doesn't with a plaintiff, that's a case you want to think about whether you want

to bring it in front of a jury.

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I'm so glad that you said that.

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Yeah, I think that's, yeah, what is it that, there's also that idea that something has to

prompt you to like them, right?

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Even when we're playing villains, ah don't always want to necessarily identify with the

villain, but we have to find something in them that makes it worthwhile to play,

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worthwhile to create a three-dimensional character, someone that also potentially can have

some empathy because that is what makes a full...

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uh

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character that we want to continue to watch.

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oh

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if you really prepare your client to testify so that their real humanity comes to the

fore, you're going to inspire the jury to want to compensate them.

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lawyer has a role in that too.

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Yeah, it's like giving them the jury, the fuel to fight for your client, to take action

for them.

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You gotta inspire them.

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the way that, first of all, Mr.

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Perez is a fighter.

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He was a fighter.

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And so that helped so much in that particular case.

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But I love what you said, Susie.

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almost every plaintiff out there has that own version of it.

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It might be a slightly different or smaller or little smaller acts that they do to try and

live and overcome their circumstances.

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But you got to find it out.

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You got to be curious about your your client.

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It just seems like if I like what you said, if you can't if you can't connect with that

client in that way or find that that fight in them, uh it might be the

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It might not be them.

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It might be the lawyers vision of that that client.

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But if you can't find that then that's a that's a big problem because then you can't you

won't be inspired to fight for them.

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And if you can't be inspired to fight for them, how do you expect a jury to be inspired to

fight for them?

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Well, it's time to get into our case.

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So today's case is a plaintiff personal injury case, which is Susie's primary area of

focus in her practice.

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And since CrossLab is all about getting fresh points of view, we are so excited to hear

Sarah's thoughts on the cross examination as well.

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So let's get into the breakdown of today's test case.

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This is Lopez versus Madison.

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The case takes place in Bakersfield, California, a jurisdiction known for its more

conservative jury pools.

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The plaintiff, Gustavo Lopez, is a 43-year-old Guatemalan-born carpenter and father of

five.

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He was struck by a vehicle while walking his dog near a shopping center.

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The defendant, Hannah Madison, a local kindergarten teacher and daughter of a well-known

pastor in the area.

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turned into the parking lot entrance and collided with Gustavo.

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Gustavo suffered a head laceration, shoulder injury, and later received a diagnosis of a

mild traumatic brain injury.

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The defense initially denied liability but accepted full fault two days before trial.

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Vardir was limited by the judge, restricting attorney's ability to thoroughly screen the

jurors for potential bias.

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The jury consists of four Caucasian men,

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for Caucasian women, one Asian man, two Hispanic women, and one Hispanic man.

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The jury was instructed not to consider how any damages would be paid.

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you.

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Suzy is representing Mr.

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Lopez and will conduct a cross-examination of Hannah Madison, played by Sarah, with the

goal of minimizing the impact of potential jury bias on the verdict and damages award.

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But before we dive into the cross-examination, let's take a quick break.

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And we wanna talk about, really quickly, our partners at LawPods.

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Lawyers think that LawPods are just the company that produces the TLU and trial lawyer

nations

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podcast, but actually they create a lot of podcasts with lawyers just like you to help

reach non lawyers aka your potential clients.

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That's right, podcasts let your audience get to know and trust you.

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And Robert Ingalls and his team make podcasting easy.

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with over a hundred million people expected to listen to podcasts this year.

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There's never been a better time to get this as a tool for getting your practice out there

to the public.

300

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And to get more info, visit LawPods, L-A-W-P-O-D-S.com.

301

:

Tell them we sent you.

302

:

We want to tell you about what we do at Trial House.

303

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We help attorneys in private sessions and in coaching to help you be a better advocate for

your client.

304

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We can help you in so many different ways from learning new trial skills or

cross-examination skills to your opening statements and even working with your clients to

305

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be great advocates for themselves in depositions or in cross-examinations and trial.

306

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The best way to reach out to us is to go to our website, trialhouse.com.

307

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That's H-A-U-S, trialhouse.com.

308

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And we've got two free resources for attorneys on there.

309

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One to help you craft a compelling narrative for your jury and another to help you get

storytelling gold from your witnesses that's gonna help you put a wonderful case together.

310

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And you can schedule a 30 minute.

311

:

storytelling consultation with us.

312

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you

313

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And no strings attached, no pressure.

314

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We just wanna meet you, we wanna talk with you and learn more about your practice and a

case that's coming up.

315

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You might actually get some really good advice at the very, very least.

316

:

ah Once again, trialhouse.com, H-A-U-S.

317

:

We hope to talk to you soon.

318

:

Welcome back.

319

:

We're about to get into this test case and Susie, just to let you know, I crafted this.

320

:

So you had to deal with bias, that is something.

321

:

that I made sure that you had no choice but to deal with this jury bias.

322

:

So I'm excited.

323

:

But Olivia, give us the ground rules.

324

:

So we are gonna do about 15 minutes today.

325

:

If it's getting juicy, might let you go a little bit longer since it's just you.

326

:

But in the interest of time, you can confirm any potential admissions that you might've

already covered with this witness.

327

:

So Susie, is there anything you want us to know ahead of time?

328

:

The only thing I would say is that when we get these fact patterns, there may be little

gaps in really fine pieces of evidence.

329

:

when we do the constructive cross, we want to make sure that we are speaking in specifics.

330

:

So I may throw out some specifics that Sarah hasn't seen in the fact pattern, and she can

respond any way she wants.

331

:

She can say, she can, you know, admit that that's what she said or that that was the case.

332

:

Or she can tell me that

333

:

You know, I'm all wet and I'll just handle it.

334

:

Awesome.

335

:

Yes, definitely.

336

:

And I think that's great too, because that's how we do it in uh cross club and any of the

other programs that we do.

337

:

We purposely don't give you all the information as the attorney, because yeah, there are

potentially some specifics, but there's also maybe some angles that you might not have

338

:

realized that you can take when you can be a little bit more creative with some of those

facts.

339

:

Sarah, without giving anything away about how you're gonna be playing the witness, what

stood out to you about this character?

340

:

I think more than anything, I thought a lot about the way that I could connect to her,

which is through the fact that she is young.

341

:

She has likely never been in a courtroom or on a witness stand before, um which I have not

either.

342

:

um So definitely that.

343

:

And I think also really focusing on what her life must be like outside of this and how

this has shifted her life and the way that she views.

344

:

herself and her family as well.

345

:

Fantastic.

346

:

Yes, absolutely.

347

:

So we are going to go ahead and get started.

348

:

Steve is going to put some time on the clock.

349

:

Suzy, the witness is yours.

350

:

Thank you.

351

:

Thank you, Your Honor.

352

:

You're welcome.

353

:

Good morning, Ms.

354

:

Madison.

355

:

May I call you Ms.

356

:

Madison?

357

:

Yes.

358

:

So, Ms.

359

:

Madison, my name is Suzy Njejian, and I represent Gustavo Lopez and his family in this

case.

360

:

I understand that.

361

:

Yes.

362

:

We're going to talk a little bit about some of the testimony that we just heard you give

on direct examination.

363

:

You were on your way to Redwood Commons Shopping Center.

364

:

Yes.

365

:

You were going to do some shopping?

366

:

Yes.

367

:

You've been to Redwood Commons before.

368

:

Yes.

369

:

In fact, you've been there many times before,

370

:

Yes, I have.

371

:

you

372

:

been to that shopping center in the late afternoon.

373

:

Yes.

374

:

So you're driving your Honda Civic patch back down Cypress Avenue.

375

:

Yes.

376

:

You're driving towards the sun.

377

:

Yes.

378

:

and the shopping mall parking entrance is over to your right.

379

:

And you had entered through this entrance before, right?

380

:

Yes.

381

:

and you've made a right turn into this entrance before.

382

:

Many times, in fact.

383

:

Yes.

384

:

And as you're going down Cypress Avenue, the sun is in your eyes.

385

:

That's what you testify to.

386

:

Yes.

387

:

And your vision is impaired.

388

:

A little yes.

389

:

And you know, as you're going down Cyprus, that at this particular vehicle entrance,

there's pedestrians sometimes cross.

390

:

Yes.

391

:

Maybe you'd crossed that vehicle entrance yourself on foot at some point before.

392

:

Yes.

393

:

And you knew on the day of this incident as you're going down Cypress Avenue that the sun

was in your eyes as you making this right turn.

394

:

Yes.

395

:

You didn't stop your vehicle before turning right, did you?

396

:

In fact, you were turning um into the pedestrian crossing at 10 to 15 miles per hour.

397

:

Yes.

398

:

We know of course what happened then.

399

:

Yes.

400

:

There was a thud at the right front of your car.

401

:

Yes.

402

:

You felt it.

403

:

Yeah, I did.

404

:

And you heard it.

405

:

Yes.

406

:

It startled you.

407

:

Yes.

408

:

You saw the body of Gustavo Lopez become airborne.

409

:

Yes.

410

:

you saw his body impact your windshield.

411

:

Yes, I did.

412

:

and the hood of your car.

413

:

Yes.

414

:

and you saw his body flung to the ground.

415

:

Yes, I did.

416

:

And as your car was moving, you actually felt the right front tire roll up and over

something hard.

417

:

Do remember that?

418

:

Yes, I do.

419

:

Sorry.

420

:

I'm sorry, I cut you off.

421

:

It's just difficult to talk about.

422

:

Yeah, I understand.

423

:

But for purposes of the case, need to get your facts for the jury.

424

:

Your car jerked up and down.

425

:

Right?

426

:

Yes.

427

:

like you'd hit a rock or something.

428

:

Yes.

429

:

Turns out that was Mr.

430

:

Lopez's dog.

431

:

Yes, it was.

432

:

you would run over Mr.

433

:

Lopez's doll.

434

:

Yes.

435

:

So you stopped your car.

436

:

Yes.

437

:

Yes.

438

:

You saw Mr.

439

:

Lopez on the ground?

440

:

Yes.

441

:

He had a gash on his forehead.

442

:

Yes.

443

:

He was holding his dog, Tonky, in his arms.

444

:

Yes.

445

:

The dog wasn't moving.

446

:

but it was making some sound.

447

:

Yes.

448

:

and you saw blood on the dog's fur.

449

:

Yes, I did.

450

:

So let's go to when the paramedics came.

451

:

You saw the paramedics arrive?

452

:

Yes.

453

:

And they began tending to Mr.

454

:

Lopez's forehead to the gash there.

455

:

Yes, I believe so.

456

:

and Mr.

457

:

Lopez continued to cradle his dog.

458

:

Yes.

459

:

You testified that you heard Mr.

460

:

Lopez say that he didn't need an ambulance.

461

:

Yes.

462

:

Yes.

463

:

And you heard him say something like, I'm okay or something like that.

464

:

Yes.

465

:

and Mr.

466

:

Lopez stayed at the scene.

467

:

Yes.

468

:

Yes.

469

:

And then the family came and took Mr.

470

:

Lopez and Tonke away from the scene.

471

:

Yes.

472

:

Now, you heard Mr.

473

:

Lopez's testimony in this trial.

474

:

Yes, I did.

475

:

He's testified that he experienced disabilities since he was struck on that day.

476

:

Yes, that's what he said.

477

:

He testified that on the day he was struck at Redwood Commons, his family took him to the

ER, to the emergency room.

478

:

That's why he said yes.

479

:

and he testified over the care he received over the subsequent months.

480

:

Yes.

481

:

up until today.

482

:

Yes.

483

:

And he's seen orthopedists.

484

:

Yes.

485

:

chiropractor.

486

:

Yes.

487

:

pain management.

488

:

Yes.

489

:

He's been diagnosed with bulging discs in his neck and in his lower back.

490

:

Yes, that's what he said.

491

:

And he testified that he was offered a spinal fusion.

492

:

Yes.

493

:

and a surgery to repair his rotator cuff in his shoulder.

494

:

Yes.

495

:

and he had a severe sprain in his knee as well.

496

:

Remember that?

497

:

I remember him saying that, yes.

498

:

And you know that Mr.

499

:

Lopez is a carpenter, right?

500

:

Yes.

501

:

that he used to work 50 hour weeks before he was injured in this collision.

502

:

That's what he said, yes.

503

:

and he's testified that now he has to turn down jobs because oh his strength and abilities

haven't been restored.

504

:

where he said yes.

505

:

And you also heard Mr.

506

:

Lopez talk about ah cognitive impairments that he's experienced.

507

:

Do remember that?

508

:

Yes, I remember him saying that.

509

:

He can't remember things that he knows.

510

:

That's why he said yes.

511

:

like he's blanked on his own phone number.

512

:

That's what he said.

513

:

And we heard from his family that he's had these unpredictable changes in mood.

514

:

Yes.

515

:

He gets irritable over little things.

516

:

Yes.

517

:

oh

518

:

Now you personally, just you, not your attorneys or the experts your attorneys have hired,

you personally do not have any evidence to contradict anything Mr.

519

:

Lopez has said about his health since this accident.

520

:

True?

521

:

That's correct, I'm not a doctor, so.

522

:

And obviously you haven't been to any of his medical appointments.

523

:

No.

524

:

No.

525

:

In fact, except for seeing him at this trial, you've not seen him at all since the

collision.

526

:

True.

527

:

That is correct.

528

:

back to the scene at some point at the scene you called your dad or texted him

529

:

Yeah, I called him.

530

:

And you called him because, well, something bad had happened.

531

:

Yeah, he's the first person I call.

532

:

and you needed his help.

533

:

Yes.

534

:

because you'd hit a person.

535

:

Yes.

536

:

you'd hit a person's dog.

537

:

Yes.

538

:

And the impact had been hard enough to damage the windshield and hood of your Honda.

539

:

Correct.

540

:

So your dad is a pastor, isn't he?

541

:

Yes, he is.

542

:

at one of the largest congregations in Bakersfield.

543

:

Yes.

544

:

You are active in your dad's church as well, right?

545

:

Yeah, very much so.

546

:

We teach kindergarten there.

547

:

Yes.

548

:

So you think a lot of your dad?

549

:

Yeah, I do.

550

:

He's the best man I know.

551

:

and he must think a lot of you.

552

:

I hope so.

553

:

So when your father arrived at the scene, the paramedics were still there?

554

:

And Mr.

555

:

Lopez was still there?

556

:

Yes.

557

:

And you saw your father speak with the police officers.

558

:

Yes.

559

:

He talked to them for about half an hour to 45 minutes.

560

:

I can't tell you exactly how long it was, but he talked to them for a little bit, yes.

561

:

And you didn't see him ever approach Mr.

562

:

Lopez?

563

:

Did You didn't ask him to speak to Mr.

564

:

Lopez?

565

:

and then you and your family left the scene together.

566

:

Yes.

567

:

Ms.

568

:

Madison, you've accepted responsibility for this collision, true?

569

:

Yes, and I'm very, very sorry that it happened.

570

:

I'm sure you are and you know that it's the right thing to accept responsibility for this

collision.

571

:

Yes.

572

:

And this collision happened on September 23rd, 2023.

573

:

Yes.

574

:

two and a half years ago.

575

:

Yes.

576

:

And you decided to admit fault only two days before this trial began.

577

:

Isn't that right?

578

:

Yes.

579

:

Before that, you denied any responsibility for this accident.

580

:

Yes.

581

:

And now that we have a jury, you accept that this accident and the damages caused were all

your fault.

582

:

Yes, within the last couple of days, yes.

583

:

Thank you, that's all I have.

584

:

I don't know if I went long enough.

585

:

Did I go long enough?

586

:

That was perfect.

587

:

It was like just 14 minutes.

588

:

dear.

589

:

I don't think you could go any longer.

590

:

It be a murder and then we'd have another case on our hands because of the murder that you

caused to this poor witness.

591

:

You got a lot accomplished in 14 minutes.

592

:

was a little bit of everything.

593

:

How did that feel though to you?

594

:

We'll go to you first, Suzy.

595

:

Did you accomplish what you wanted to accomplish?

596

:

Well, I did, but what was scaring me was, she's angelic and sympathetic and the jury's

gonna be feeling sorry for her.

597

:

And so I had to show her, you know, that I respected her humanity, m that she, I think

she's a good person and her dad's a good person and they love each other very much.

598

:

I wanted to get that in there um to humanize myself.

599

:

um I think if I did it again,

600

:

I might have, I don't know, this is tough because, you know, there are lawyers who would

um be, uh you know, more, I don't know, I guess.

601

:

Let me think about this a minute.

602

:

I've heard lawyers talk about the witness gets up and he looks like my teenage son.

603

:

And I was all ready to get him to admit all this stuff, but then that's not what I ended

up doing because I didn't think it was going to help me.

604

:

But even before I knew what kind of a witness Sarah would be, whether she would be a

crying witness or you know, or

605

:

a real docile witness as she was, I decided that I was going to focus on um humanizing Mr.

606

:

Lopez as much as possible.

607

:

And the best way to do that was to really talk about his dog.

608

:

um Because people understand the love of a dog.

609

:

And that just puts us all on the same level.

610

:

We see past ethnicity and demographics

611

:

when we see a person holding his dog, his bleeding dog.

612

:

So that's the approach that I took.

613

:

Yeah.

614

:

Did you have any expectation that she might be something other than Angelic, ah what

potentially is on the page?

615

:

Like, did you have any suspicion that she might be other than that?

616

:

um Well, she could have been really sort of um assertive um and defensive.

617

:

She could have betrayed um maybe some bias against Mr.

618

:

Lopez that he's not a member of their church um and therefore he is not going to heaven.

619

:

um You know, sometimes you will get somebody like that who betrays that a little bit.

620

:

um

621

:

know, kindergarten teacher, was actually expecting her to be as um she did portray

herself.

622

:

Just really likable, really cute, um really remorseful, and following her lawyer's advice

not to get defensive, not to argue with me, which is what her lawyer would have told her

623

:

to do.

624

:

Here's what I noticed though that you did do, and I don't know if this was purposeful or

not, but I could, in your first few questions, um I did notice the, uh well, I would say

625

:

in the acting world was your intention was to dip your toe in the water to see how is this

witness going to react and how do I adjust?

626

:

And I noticed you take that approach with your first.

627

:

couple of questions.

628

:

And what I saw then in that case that it buys you a little bit of time, gives you a moment

for both of you even, because she's never been on the stand, to acclimate to whatever

629

:

water you are stepping into.

630

:

And that's what I saw.

631

:

I don't know if it was purposeful in that way, but that's what I could see you doing to

kind of have this moment of adjustment for yourself to do that.

632

:

Is that something that you intended or just something that I saw, Suzy?

633

:

unconscious, I certainly was sizing her up.

634

:

um I wanted to get an answer from her so that I could see where she, you know, basically,

what is her tone?

635

:

What is her approach going to be in this?

636

:

So yeah, but that doesn't mean that I knew where she was going to go.

637

:

There were several times where I thought she might start crying and I'm going to have to

do something about that.

638

:

into the crying part because I saw there was real emotion there and Sarah did a great job

with that.

639

:

um And I can't wait to get your thoughts on that.

640

:

But for me, what I was seeing is because of the tone that you held, it was tough for her

to cry because you were so smooth and you weren't attacking.

641

:

There was no attacking in your tone.

642

:

it was just so factual ah that even when uh and I'd love to I want to kick it to Sarah

next but it seemed like even when you went by that step by step when you're painting the

643

:

picture so effectively about the scene of the accident and you went back again.

644

:

ah It was hard for her to you know because I don't you know I don't think she was being

attacked so it's hard to.

645

:

get to that crying place if you're not, you know, if somebody's not going after you and

accusing you and, uh you know, there was, sometimes when we're playing these parts.

646

:

Tears can help us escape somewhere that's uncomfortable and doesn't, where we don't wanna

be.

647

:

But I think you kept it just uncomfortable enough, uncomfortable enough to where she

couldn't go to that place.

648

:

But Sarah, what did you feel?

649

:

How did you feel about the cross?

650

:

It was wild.

651

:

think I that's the perfect way to describe it, Steve.

652

:

I feel like I was way more comfortable than I was expecting to be.

653

:

And Susie, the way that you spoke to me was so kind that I was like, okay, I just have to

listen to her and answer her questions and I can get through this and then it'll be done.

654

:

And that was very much.

655

:

what I was feeling and there wasn't really anything that you were giving me that I felt

like I had the right to fight you on.

656

:

I'm so glad that you said that because that's what we tell attorneys all the time and what

we work with our clients on.

657

:

When you are doing it, doing it fact by fact like that takes so much of the fear off of us

that it does put us at ease.

658

:

And so that is to your advantage, Suzy, and any attorney's advantage to really take it

factually, take all of the

659

:

conclusions out of it and do it step by step.

660

:

That's another thing where if things are so step by step like you did it, Suzy, even

starting off with the fact that she's done this before, she's gone down that street

661

:

before, she's made a right turn there before.

662

:

All of those things, fact by fact doesn't also allow your witness to feel like, gosh, I

got to fill in a gap.

663

:

Because you were doing it so incrementally that you were missing nothing in each of your

questions.

664

:

So that also doing it

665

:

That way also takes a load off of us to feel like, my gosh, I gotta, she's missing

something.

666

:

I gotta say something more than a yes or no.

667

:

So I loved that chapter, by the way, all the things that she has done before making this a

normal situation.

668

:

you know what I mean?

669

:

Like, like she would have known she's done this many times before and not being afraid to

say the sun was in your eyes.

670

:

Like that for me, your vision was impaired.

671

:

I don't know that every...

672

:

From my opinion, I don't know that every attorney would own that and take that on.

673

:

Steve's shaking his head too.

674

:

I think that takes a lot of courage um to take that angle.

675

:

Well, and she gave you like a great answer for you because she said a little and I was

like, I was like, is she gonna loop that?

676

:

Is she gonna hammer her with that?

677

:

And you're like, No, that's good.

678

:

I'm just gonna move on.

679

:

ah So Suzy, was that a moment where you were considering what to do with that answer?

680

:

Or did that just kind of?

681

:

Where were you with that?

682

:

So I actually assumed that that was her defense, that the sun was in her eyes.

683

:

So I thought that that was a given.

684

:

um And so when I asked her, I really thought I was going over old ground and didn't think

I was, you know, grabbing a new admission.

685

:

And I didn't think to loop it at all because I thought it was already part of the record.

686

:

Yeah, I guess it's the idea of you owning her story by saying it and confirming it.

687

:

Confirming the fact that the sun was in her eyes.

688

:

I guess that's how I felt.

689

:

Like that I don't know that every attorney would put that as far as owning it in that way.

690

:

Does that make sense?

691

:

Yeah, I will add that in an admitted liability case, I don't know that a judge would have

allowed those questions.

692

:

It's a fine line.

693

:

You are not allowed to ask about what they did wrong or what they failed to do.

694

:

And I did go there with her.

695

:

I did expose things in terms of the right turn lane.

696

:

She didn't stop first, and then she was 10 to 15 miles an hour.

697

:

I think there would have been objections, and um I would have argued that, well,

698

:

I am allowed to set the scene.

699

:

m And so it would have depended on what the judge wanted to do with that and how much the

judge wanted me to be able to say about the scene.

700

:

But we can certainly talk about the scene in order to establish damages and what she saw

and what happened um after the collision and all of that.

701

:

But that particular piece with the collision, the sun in her eyes, I don't even know if I

would have been allowed to say that.

702

:

I like that you're not afraid to go there though.

703

:

it's that whole thing of it's better to be uh forgiven than to ask permission.

704

:

With that kind of an ethos, is that what you bring to any cross examination when you're in

trial?

705

:

Or is it you have to be really calculating because there might be some danger in that?

706

:

I think some lawyers push the envelope way more than I do.

707

:

don't like objections.

708

:

uh And so I'm not going to, you know, because it just interrupts the flow and it

interrupts the story that I'm eliciting.

709

:

But some lawyers, just, uh they'll just bulldoze beyond the judge sustaining objections.

710

:

And they're comfortable doing that.

711

:

Me, if there had been an objection sustained, I would have, you know, pivoted.

712

:

And I'm happy that the question got out there because the jury heard it and they know.

713

:

To add something about the Sun fact.

714

:

Yeah.

715

:

I think that was part of what made me comfortable as well because I was like, she sees me.

716

:

She's not trying to accuse me of using my phone.

717

:

em So for you to confirm my story and something that was part of my defense em was

actually really successful in getting me on your side, I think.

718

:

because that made me more comfortable because you were agreeing with what I said happened

in that way.

719

:

I wanna go to the next part of the cross where we get in.

720

:

We kind of talked about it already about setting the, you know, that moment of the impact.

721

:

But what you did was so, ignited all the senses so much.

722

:

was, uh we had, we could feel it, we could hear it.

723

:

ah There was so much, and then it was like the bump, like you hit, uh like you rolled a,

724

:

rolled over a rock and that was, and then we find out that's the dog, you know, that's

you, you took her step by step through that and we could all see and feel that before I

725

:

get your feedback into it, uh Suzy, Sarah, how did that feel as the witness?

726

:

it

727

:

It was horrible.

728

:

think, I mean, from an acting perspective, it was great because I didn't have to do any

work because it was all being relayed to me.

729

:

um And as an actor, that's obviously something that I had thought about, but it was

completely laid out for me in every sense.

730

:

There was no way for me as the witness to not relive exactly what happened.

731

:

And even that detail, like you said, of...

732

:

like going over a rock, that must have been exactly what it felt like.

733

:

And then to realize that the rock that you went over was actually a dog is horrifying.

734

:

Yeah, it was laid out.

735

:

Yeah, there were no gaps.

736

:

Yeah, your word choice, thud, is just one of those words that like you say, but it's also

like, I don't know, is it automatopoeia?

737

:

Is that the right way saying it?

738

:

It sounds like it, yeah.

739

:

body became airborne.

740

:

Like, how is she gonna deny that?

741

:

Of course she freaking saw that, right?

742

:

But that is also when you could see her kind of go internal and feel, I could see at least

from you, Sarah, like starting to get emotional because you were walking her through it.

743

:

But again, so fact-based flung and blood on the dog's fur.

744

:

uh Just images that we can see here and then to reduce the dog to a rock.

745

:

ah I just thought was really that the word choice of rock was really um important.

746

:

Yeah.

747

:

I want to say something about the dog questions because that, mean, we've already talked

about how that's such a great uh part of, and I don't mean great because it's awful what

748

:

happens to the dog, but that was such an impactful moment.

749

:

going back to people, like you said, Susie, people care about animals more than humans

half the time.

750

:

And so you really use that.

751

:

We've worked with

752

:

cases where there was reluctance to talk about the dog uh or a dog involved in whatever

the accident was.

753

:

But in this particular case, because this is based on a real case, right, Steve, that

we've kind of altered a little bit, and there was a dog involved.

754

:

Yeah, and there was a reluctance to talk about it because there's, can't, you know, it's

not part of the injuries that were sustained.

755

:

ah And so it's like, well, we can't go after that, but it's not about the injuries.

756

:

It's about igniting the jury's, their anger about this.

757

:

They're getting them sucked into this story.

758

:

Is there any danger to that?

759

:

Susie has someone who is not a lawyer and we just think about story elements.

760

:

Is there any danger to to bringing that dog in there?

761

:

Are you worried about there being some kind of objections or anything to to that dog?

762

:

Well,

763

:

if the dog is really unrelated to what's going on, which is hard to imagine.

764

:

I mean, if you're walking your dog and you're hit and you're stunned, you're going to

think about your child and whether they're okay.

765

:

And so I sort of added that.

766

:

I embellished that fact that he was actually cradling Tonki.

767

:

And that allowed me to explain why

768

:

he waved off the ambulance and said, I'm okay, because all he could think about was his

dog.

769

:

I mean, and I think everyone can relate to that.

770

:

So that was the narrative I was going with.

771

:

they're, you know, if he had been walking, I don't know, I can't imagine a scenario where

he wouldn't care about the dog.

772

:

mean, even if it's somebody else's dog, it's like the responsibility you feel somebody

else's child.

773

:

I mean, really, our dogs are our children.

774

:

So that to me was the, m

775

:

you know, a real gift in this fact pattern against the defendant.

776

:

However cute she is, she ran over a dog.

777

:

You also went into the play-by-play of the medical and, you know, assuming that she was

there in the courtroom while your client was testifying, I don't see any other way, and I

778

:

want to ask you, Sarah, that she denies that because she could potentially come off as

insensitive, uh you know, denying any of those claims that she heard him testify to in

779

:

court.

780

:

Sarah, how did you feel during that section?

781

:

I think...

782

:

I was definitely, I got a little uncomfortable toward the end just because there was so

much.

783

:

um And it didn't feel like I, there wasn't anything I could add or say to any of that

other than agree that that's what he said because as Susie said, I wasn't in all of those

784

:

doctor's appointments.

785

:

um So I was toward the end,

786

:

just getting a little, okay, what's the point here on my end?

787

:

Because to her, I think it feels a little irrelevant to go over each of those em injuries

because she can't say anything to that.

788

:

And that's a good point because, um you know, I was taking a risk that I might anger the

jury.

789

:

The jury might resent that I'm taking her through all that because she doesn't know.

790

:

And it's unfair.

791

:

uh But it was an opportunity to get those facts out there through the named defendant.

792

:

um And so that the jury understands what I'm trying to tell the jury is she doesn't

personally doubt any of this is true.

793

:

um It's her lawyer and these experts, paid experts that they brought in, they paraded in

to undermine the claims of the plaintiff.

794

:

But she did really well in um making sure the jury knew that she's not agreeing that those

are his damages, but she's agreeing that that's what he said in this courtroom.

795

:

Yeah, she heard that.

796

:

He testified to that.

797

:

So she held her own.

798

:

I was gonna say that that that strategy of taking the focus off of Hannah, Sarah's

character Hannah, and putting it on the lawyers, we actually are working on uh a uh with

799

:

an attorney on a case where there is a sympathetic uh defendant.

800

:

And that was that was what we talked about.

801

:

Let's put the focus on this big law firm, you know, and you can I just kind of, hey, this

this

802

:

defendant you can see doesn't have a whole lot of money.

803

:

It's this big law firm.

804

:

Well, how does the big law firm come to be?

805

:

You know, you can add that together.

806

:

That's a whole different thing.

807

:

But really putting the focus on the attorneys.

808

:

Do you do you try to do that often?

809

:

uh Unless it's egregious, and the defendant is worthy of that.

810

:

But you try to put the focus on the attorneys and the experts as much as possible, Susie.

811

:

Actually not.

812

:

I try to ignore the attorneys and act like they don't matter.

813

:

They're irrelevant.

814

:

I don't let them trigger me.

815

:

um And I notice that they like to pile on me and they like to complain about me to the

jury.

816

:

And I don't think the jury likes that.

817

:

So what I did here was because she is so likeable and because she's a Christian.

818

:

She and her father

819

:

are very active in a church, love thy neighbor.

820

:

And I want the jury to know that that's who she is.

821

:

And she's gonna agree with me that Lopez uh is entitled to be compensated for what

happened to him.

822

:

And quite apart from what her lawyers are saying.

823

:

So it was really not, um it really wasn't demonizing the defense team as much as it was

making them irrelevant, getting them out of the way.

824

:

so that the jury will understand the human um decision they need to make here between

human beings.

825

:

You know, here's this nice girl, she made a mistake, she regrets it, and here's this nice

man who's gonna live the rest of his life with these damages.

826

:

And, you know, he needs to be compensated and she wouldn't disagree.

827

:

I think the one part and we're going to that last part where once again, no attacking

tone, no, you were consistent all the way through.

828

:

But when you bring up that and she has to own it because even though it was likely not her

decision to do this, but to say that you only accepted responsibility two days ago, it's

829

:

like, what do you say to that?

830

:

It's such a, like,

831

:

those facts are harsh.

832

:

And like for me, I was like, here, here comes the the the finishing touch.

833

:

Like, what a way to finish that cross by going into that whole scenario that for me, I was

just like, Oh, devastating.

834

:

Would you have ended there, Suzie, in a trial as well?

835

:

Like if you potentially had more time, you know, even outside of this, you know, your 15

minutes, is that a good place that you might've ended anyways?

836

:

shorter the better.

837

:

with this witness, got everything that I needed and I don't want her on the stand too long

because she's so nice.

838

:

um a lot of times with admissions of fault, they stipulate that you can't mention that it

was only two days ago.

839

:

So the defendants have done away with that because it is very effective.

840

:

um But maybe they don't do that all the time.

841

:

uh I know that in the trials that I've been in,

842

:

The judge tells us you can't tell them.

843

:

You can't let the jury know.

844

:

If that was the case in this cross, is there another way that you would have tried to uh

not bring that up, but is there a different way that you would strategically try to finish

845

:

uh this cross to kind of maybe not get that same effect, like exactly that same effect,

but try to finish on that, that like nail in the coffin kind of uh way, like you were able

846

:

to in this simulation.

847

:

Well, I think I wouldn't have talked about how it's two and a half years later.

848

:

I wouldn't have talked about time, but I would have said to her, you admit fault and you

acknowledge that as the right thing to do.

849

:

And um I might've had a few more questions about that, about what is the right thing to

do.

850

:

When you cause harm, you understand that under the law, that harm needs to be compensated.

851

:

and that it's the jury's role to determine what that compensation is.

852

:

You understand that?

853

:

I mean, something like that.

854

:

So I would still um make sure, I would still ask her, you admit this was your fault.

855

:

oh Assuming I'm allowed to, and I think I would be, you just can't say when in a lot of

courts with a lot of judges.

856

:

I want to go back because before, because you actually did something right at the end.

857

:

We were just talking about painting the picture of these, you know, love thy neighbor

people.

858

:

And you brought, before you closed, you brought her dad into the scene of the accident and

going through that.

859

:

And when he arrived, you know, making sure, you know, to go over to to Hannah and that her

dad, a pastor.

860

:

a well-known pastor, did not go over to make sure Mr.

861

:

Lopez was okay.

862

:

That was such a huge admission, but just uh another picture in our head of these people

and their self-preservation versus making sure that somebody who is hurt, dog, and or

863

:

human are okay.

864

:

How did that feel, Sarah, to you?

865

:

I want to go to you first.

866

:

How did that feel kind of going through that particular portion?

867

:

Yeah, I think more than anything, think I was thinking about, I think Hannah was worried

that her dad would become this figure to be used in my story that would go against me.

868

:

And so I think I was trying to really be like, okay, he wasn't involved.

869

:

And I think I didn't even realize in the moment until after that fact pattern that that's

what that would mean.

870

:

Like I was so in it that I was like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

871

:

No, no, no, I didn't ask him to go over.

872

:

And then I was like, oh, well, yeah, yeah.

873

:

Not great.

874

:

It so makes sense for this character who feels extreme guilt about so many things.

875

:

And then I love that you went, you know, really took an emphasis on that relationship

between her and her father and trying to protect him and his name.

876

:

And then it leads to kind of like, uh like a bad, a bad picture.

877

:

But that's once again, Suzy, you were

878

:

delivering these questions without any any extra uh any extra vigor or it was just

consistent.

879

:

I think that's what allows you to get away with so much stuff and we try to we try to

teach that all the time is just like detaching from um the the emotions of it a little bit

880

:

when you're the lawyer delivering these cross examinations and realize that you're doing

so much damage.

881

:

without needing to get angry and without needing to get fired up.

882

:

uh So, I mean, we know that's your delivery, Suzy, but what do you think about that as far

as like not getting into uh those like fired up angry emotions when you're going through a

883

:

cross like this or any cross?

884

:

So I think, I mean, I learned this from you and I even said it on the webinar last Friday

was about when you are going to approach a witness, you set an intention about what

885

:

feeling you want the jury to have by the time you sit down from after your examination.

886

:

And so I didn't want the jury to feel like I was beating up on this nice girl.

887

:

And I wanted the jury to feel that I am bringing out the facts.

888

:

And they may be tough facts for her to own, but I'm going to acknowledge her humanity and

separate that, not personalize them, not blame her for these facts.

889

:

These facts have happened, and we can all agree that they happened, and this is how they

happened.

890

:

But I did, um for example, shift my tone when I said, think a lot of your dad, don't you?

891

:

You know, like, I'm a daughter, too, and I know what it's like to feel.

892

:

you know, really good about a good dad.

893

:

And he loves you too.

894

:

And she says, I hope so, because she's feeling terrible about herself.

895

:

But there is a moment of, I get it, you know, and the jury sees that I get it, that, you

know, she's a loving daughter and she's a loved daughter.

896

:

And that's a good thing.

897

:

And then we move right into, and then you guys are circling the wagons, right?

898

:

You know?

899

:

And nobody notices that except that,

900

:

That's the fact, you know?

901

:

ah Yeah, the pastor didn't go up to the injured man to say, you okay?

902

:

I want to ask you, and this was not a question um that we had prepped you for, but I know

that you've done this before because we talked about it in the case that you did with the

903

:

electrician.

904

:

To get that word choice, to get that word choice of how they're going to potentially frame

your client, how the defense is going to frame your client, you kind of took a step back,

905

:

right, Suzie, to kind of think about it in that way to ultimately help you come up with

the word choice that you

906

:

used um that would boost your client.

907

:

Can you talk about that process a little bit?

908

:

Well, it's a very high tech process these days because we do big data studies and we get

word clouds.

909

:

So word clouds are oh little collages of words and they are uh color coded according to

whether these words were spoken by uh favorable jurors and uh jurors who were unfavorable

910

:

to your case.

911

:

it's red if they're more pro-defense and it's blue if they're more

912

:

pro-plenif and it's black if you hear this, you know, equally from both sides.

913

:

And then the more frequently you hear the word, the bigger it is.

914

:

um that less frequency, frequently you hear the word, um of course, the smaller it is.

915

:

And so these, there's a word cloud for every witness, including the plaintiff.

916

:

And for example, in the case that we did, hardworking was huge.

917

:

um And it was mostly blue, but it came from both sides.

918

:

um And so we select words from those word clouds based upon this research that we do.

919

:

And so it is pretty sophisticated.

920

:

um So we focus everything.

921

:

come a long way since, uh, since you first started, uh, uh, uh, trying cases, uh, so many

years ago, it's, it's gotta be amazing.

922

:

The tools that are available now versus when you first started as a, as a, uh, a brand new

lawyer.

923

:

But then, you know, um we are still reliant on our own imagination and ingenuity because

by the time the evidence is all out there and you're going into closing, most people don't

924

:

have the opportunity to do a focus group or to do big data.

925

:

And so you've got to read your own jury and you've got to the evidence that came out and

em use uh themes that uh are going to resonate the most in your closing argument.

926

:

uh

927

:

you know, it's not all taken over by tech.

928

:

Yeah, I remember you had to do that because weren't two witnesses at the last minute, at

least two kind of thrown at you.

929

:

How did you, and there's no, you you just got to do it.

930

:

There's no like AI even quickly to help you do that.

931

:

So what did you, what were some of those things that you pulled in to help you on the spot

kind of create those crosses?

932

:

And by the way, kill them both, those experts.

933

:

Yeah, they were both defense witnesses and I'd never met them before.

934

:

I'd never taken their depositions before and they were very high risk witnesses.

935

:

But I would say that the thing that was the saving grace for me was knowing the case so

well and knowing what the defense was going to use these witnesses to prove so that I knew

936

:

what they were not prepared to testify about.

937

:

And then when I asked them questions about what they weren't prepared to testify about, I

got

938

:

honest answers that I expected to get because I knew the industry so well.

939

:

knew the particular, oh you know, oh what my client had been doing as an electrician.

940

:

one of them was an electrician.

941

:

So I asked him, well, what does your employer require you to do under these circumstances?

942

:

And I got exactly the answers that we had been saying all along, our client did.

943

:

And in doing so, know, METR exceeded the standard of care.

944

:

that we got gold from that guy and it ended up being something we used prominently in our

closing argument.

945

:

And the other one was just so poorly prepared and such a, just he was so flipped that that

one was a lot easier to do.

946

:

But just being prepared, you know.

947

:

I prepare to help me cope with the anxiety and the stress of getting up on game day.

948

:

So I over prepare and you know.

949

:

You can't get away with doing trials without preparing, but the greatest benefit to

preparing is having that mental agility and the ability to deal with the unexpected as

950

:

it's being thrown at you.

951

:

With that being said, I do want to go back to what we were talking about as far as the

closing argument.

952

:

when you're approaching that closing argument and you have a case like this where the

defendant is extremely sympathetic, how do you go about asking the jury to assign

953

:

significant damages?

954

:

What are some of the strategies that you would use going into that closing argument where

it's really important?

955

:

I mean, the whole purpose is to get an award that provides for your client, that really,

really provides for them, not just getting against the defendant, but really getting that

956

:

life-changing uh award, that verdict award.

957

:

What are some of the things that you try to do to make that happen?

958

:

So with a very sympathetic defendant like Hannah Madison, I'm going to definitely let the

jury know that there is, you know, we're not blaming her personally for this.

959

:

This is, you know, this is a damages trial.

960

:

And in fact, I don't have to prove that she's liable because she's admitted it.

961

:

In fact, in some ways, it would be harder if they had denied liability because then I

would still have to make the jury point the finger at her.

962

:

it's easier to do it here when it's, you know, admitted liability.

963

:

We're just going to focus on the damages.

964

:

And this has nothing to do with Hannah Madison personally.

965

:

She's a lovely person, but you know, this, is what it is.

966

:

And you have to evaluate damages.

967

:

That's one thing I would do.

968

:

And then the other thing I would do is go back to what we've clearly talked about in jury

selection.

969

:

If not me, then the defense, which is you can't make your decisions based on sympathy.

970

:

All right.

971

:

sympathy for the plaintiff.

972

:

And I would say, and you know, you can't base your decisions based on sympathy for

anybody, either party, the defendant, the plaintiff or the defendant.

973

:

And she's very sympathetic.

974

:

And I would take that head off and then just tell them, you know, it's the same rule

applies on both sides.

975

:

And then really spend a lot of time on damages and as little time as possible on her.

976

:

That's great.

977

:

I do want to switch it to Sarah really quick.

978

:

ah You had such great insights as far as your journey through that cross.

979

:

And I really appreciate that.

980

:

And I appreciate the uh preparation that you did.

981

:

And with that in mind, one of the things that we always do when we're working with our

clients and we're approaching a deposition or cross is we're doing it.

982

:

We do a basically a character study.

983

:

uh When you were taking on a role, and I think this could be helpful to uh

984

:

The people who are listening to us as trial lawyers, when you're taking on a role, what

are the first things that you do to study that character, to really try to understand that

985

:

character from beyond the words on the page?

986

:

What a great question.

987

:

think a lot about what their life is like and how I can relate to it em and maybe what's

different from myself or what's similar to other people that I know.

988

:

em I think looking beyond the page to who they are, what their personality is like.

989

:

You can't really tell what someone's personality is like by reading words that they've

said or...

990

:

necessarily a description about them.

991

:

em So I think looking at that and thinking about what's important to them, who's important

in their life, what are the important things in their life, what are their touchstones, em

992

:

how do they live their life.

993

:

em Really going into those details, I think can very quickly make someone more human and

more alive.

994

:

And those are the specific, the specifics that really make a person a person and not just

a description or words on a page.

995

:

I'm thinking of like texting, even like, you know, just writing a text and it's like,

gosh, I hope that comes off okay, because it's just, you know, you don't know context or,

996

:

you know, how somebody's actually saying something if, you know, it could sound angry to

you in a text, but that's not really maybe how it might come off if they were to literally

997

:

say it.

998

:

And then knowing like some attorneys can...

999

:

you know, get away with different things uh than others.

:

01:22:27,111 --> 01:22:27,882

It just depends.

:

01:22:27,882 --> 01:22:31,113

You can't base it off of, you know, what you read on a page.

:

01:22:31,113 --> 01:22:31,894

Absolutely.

:

01:22:31,894 --> 01:22:43,674

And I think also thinking specifically with Hannah, thinking about how she would react to

different types of people, because that's the unknown here, right?

:

01:22:43,674 --> 01:22:45,239

It's just like being in a scene.

:

01:22:45,239 --> 01:22:51,942

You can have a goal and have what you want to get across and what you want to say.

:

01:22:52,344 --> 01:22:54,235

but you might not get to do that.

:

01:22:54,335 --> 01:23:06,174

And it might be separate or different from what you were expecting because you don't know

who the lawyer is or how they're gonna treat you or what angle they're going to take.

:

01:23:06,174 --> 01:23:15,610

So both as the actor and the witness, it's like you have to be agile to whatever you

receive from the other end.

:

01:23:15,610 --> 01:23:21,594

I think a really important thing that you said about when you're thinking about this

character is what's important to them.

:

01:23:21,594 --> 01:23:34,481

And I think when we're thinking about and we're looking into, uh you know, an upcoming uh

witness that is going to be deposed or, or cross examined for by one of our clients.

:

01:23:34,481 --> 01:23:42,626

I think that's one of the things that we always think about is, is what's important to

them, because it can tell you so much about what they're going to say.

:

01:23:42,738 --> 01:23:47,189

when we're trying to, you know, take on that witness, like, how would they react?

:

01:23:47,189 --> 01:23:48,500

What are they going to say?

:

01:23:48,500 --> 01:24:04,214

And you know, one of the things that that that I think it showed in this particular cross

was your um devotion and um you know, the way that you look at your father and him as

:

01:24:04,214 --> 01:24:12,756

somebody that's prominent in the community, he'd really tell and it it showed it's it's,

you know, it came out.

:

01:24:12,994 --> 01:24:18,926

there was you know, they had that moment where we talked about it and it came out so

naturally, how that that worked out.

:

01:24:18,926 --> 01:24:24,337

But I think that's such an important thing is take an empathetic look at who you're going

to cross or depose.

:

01:24:24,337 --> 01:24:28,778

And I want to bring it to Suzy and really quick and I know we're we're getting towards the

end.

:

01:24:28,778 --> 01:24:39,461

But Suzy, when you're thinking about that witness or or or that you're going to depose or

you're going to cross, do you take that same approach of thinking about what's important

:

01:24:39,461 --> 01:24:42,136

to them and how that might

:

01:24:42,136 --> 01:24:43,711

get them to react?

:

01:24:44,234 --> 01:24:48,194

You know, I like that particular phrasing.

:

01:24:48,194 --> 01:24:50,039

I think what I think about are their interest.

:

01:24:50,039 --> 01:24:52,581

What is their interest here?

:

01:24:52,581 --> 01:25:02,150

And what are they um going to want me to elicit and what and and what are they going to

want to conceal?

:

01:25:02,150 --> 01:25:12,002

And so I look at their motives um and then come up, you know, with a cross based upon my

need that my needs for the case.

:

01:25:12,002 --> 01:25:25,248

think in this case, really appreciated that Sarah did, you know, thought about Hannah um

and what kind of person, how Hannah lives her life, what her life is like, you know, going

:

01:25:25,248 --> 01:25:36,963

to the mall, teaching kindergarten, you know, remaining really close to her family, the

family that she grew up in, you know, this Christian household that has some celebrity

:

01:25:36,963 --> 01:25:38,423

status in the neighborhood.

:

01:25:38,423 --> 01:25:40,396

So she actually likes that.

:

01:25:40,396 --> 01:25:41,617

She didn't rebel against it.

:

01:25:41,617 --> 01:25:42,948

She didn't leave it.

:

01:25:42,948 --> 01:25:48,911

And so those facts communicated the same thing to me, that that's who I'm dealing with.

:

01:25:49,091 --> 01:25:50,582

And she's also a good girl.

:

01:25:50,582 --> 01:25:53,274

She's going to do what she's been told to do.

:

01:25:53,274 --> 01:26:00,418

And that is m not argue with me and be sort of an easy witness and just get through it.

:

01:26:00,418 --> 01:26:08,098

um And I liked what she said that, you know, that was her mindset as Hannah was.

:

01:26:08,098 --> 01:26:12,021

I just have to listen and answer the questions and it'll be over soon.

:

01:26:12,762 --> 01:26:19,027

And so that made her, you know, that made my approach uh a good one for her.

:

01:26:19,287 --> 01:26:24,532

So if she had said, that's not true, my dad did go and talk to Mr.

:

01:26:24,532 --> 01:26:26,253

Lopez, for example.

:

01:26:26,578 --> 01:26:37,422

I can't say in a vacuum now what I would have done, but um if we were to rewind and she

had done that, um I might have, you know, looped what she said.

:

01:26:37,634 --> 01:26:46,062

because the particular words she chose might have been uh revealing of something and I

could have gone someplace with that.

:

01:26:46,062 --> 01:26:54,668

um But no, it's frankly much more realistic that the pastor didn't go and talk to them.

:

01:26:54,668 --> 01:27:01,088

I wonder if it would play into like you, in terms of damages, like he went over to make

sure he was okay.

:

01:27:01,088 --> 01:27:02,611

And you wanna make sure he's okay.

:

01:27:02,611 --> 01:27:10,176

what, know, however it would actually be able to do it in court, that you wanna make sure

that he, you know, um remains okay.

:

01:27:10,176 --> 01:27:16,608

I would not have taken that risk unless I knew that there was established evidence that he

did not go up there.

:

01:27:16,608 --> 01:27:20,779

Now, if I knew that he had gone up there ah and asked Mr.

:

01:27:20,779 --> 01:27:26,191

Lopez how he was, um I don't know that I would have touched it.

:

01:27:26,191 --> 01:27:39,074

If there was some other aspect to that conversation that I felt I wanted the jury to hear,

maybe I would have, but um I was secure that it's in the record.

:

01:27:39,074 --> 01:27:46,583

you know, let's say the pastor testified and he, you know, he testified only to

conversations with the police and his daughter and then he left.

:

01:27:46,583 --> 01:27:53,001

um Then it would have been beautiful to bring it up because then nobody had asked him

before, well, did you talk to Mr.

:

01:27:53,001 --> 01:27:53,492

Lopez?

:

01:27:53,492 --> 01:27:55,384

And I could have done it through his daughter.

:

01:27:55,384 --> 01:28:00,344

Well, Suzy, any other takeaways from today if you had to cross this witness tomorrow?

:

01:28:00,344 --> 01:28:07,437

Well, I would have been, uh yeah, was definitely tuned in to see if she's going to start

crying.

:

01:28:07,637 --> 01:28:12,159

And because then you do need to uh deal with that.

:

01:28:12,159 --> 01:28:21,663

And the way you deal with it is to remove her from the scene and get her to focus on other

facts.

:

01:28:21,663 --> 01:28:25,004

So I might have jumped around with my chapters.

:

01:28:25,004 --> 01:28:29,804

So if she started crying at the point where she hit the dog, um I would have

:

01:28:29,804 --> 01:28:37,543

jumped to something else about her dad, the pastor or something like that.

:

01:28:37,543 --> 01:28:39,826

But I didn't have to do that.

:

01:28:39,826 --> 01:28:50,828

She was on the verge of tears, but I was able to continue with the chronology that I

wanted to follow and it was okay.

:

01:28:50,828 --> 01:28:55,581

Yeah, I think it was because you were going so fact-based.

:

01:28:55,581 --> 01:28:58,883

You didn't kind of let her sit in any of those too long.

:

01:28:58,883 --> 01:29:11,082

um You kept your pace and something that uh even as a crying witness that we've played, uh

you know, we can definitely milk it, but it's because, you know, like, I feel like it's

:

01:29:11,082 --> 01:29:19,898

because they're really trying, the attorney's really trying to draw it out in us, but you

just went, you just kept going on what you needed to do and didn't, fazed by that in that

:

01:29:19,898 --> 01:29:20,778

respect.

:

01:29:20,854 --> 01:29:27,098

Yeah, Sarah, you're an artist who doesn't necessarily work in the legal field, but you've

been with us a few times now.

:

01:29:27,098 --> 01:29:28,940

What stood out to you today?

:

01:29:28,940 --> 01:29:40,338

I think really just thinking about, and I touch on it a little bit at the end of the last

thing that I said, but thinking about how cross-examining someone is not a singular

:

01:29:40,338 --> 01:29:40,998

experience.

:

01:29:40,998 --> 01:29:48,053

can't decide or figure out exactly how it's going to go, even if you've planned it.

:

01:29:48,053 --> 01:29:49,914

And I think that's where

:

01:29:50,318 --> 01:30:03,402

em a lawyer's experience and an actor's experience really overlap because you can have a

goal going into a scene or as a character and you truly might not get what you want.

:

01:30:03,402 --> 01:30:05,522

Most of the times you might not.

:

01:30:05,522 --> 01:30:12,924

em And I think that's kind of what's fun to me about being an actor is you don't know

what's on the other side.

:

01:30:12,924 --> 01:30:15,565

You don't know how you're going to come out of it.

:

01:30:15,565 --> 01:30:19,526

em You have this other person to play with.

:

01:30:19,791 --> 01:30:24,385

and something comes out of it and you don't know what it's gonna be.

:

01:30:24,620 --> 01:30:37,179

I think that attitude is such a great way to look at even cross-examination and

depositions that there's something exciting there, that it's not necessarily like this, um

:

01:30:37,179 --> 01:30:48,867

know, where, God, I hope it goes exactly the way I want it, but having some excitement

about there's some unexpected stuff that's gonna happen, but if I'm dialed in and I'm

:

01:30:48,867 --> 01:30:53,950

prepared for things to not go the way I want them to,

:

01:30:54,324 --> 01:30:58,215

And especially if have the skill set and the tools to deal with that.

:

01:30:58,536 --> 01:30:59,796

Gosh, could.

:

01:30:59,956 --> 01:31:04,818

It's it could be an amazing experience or a much more positive going into it.

:

01:31:04,818 --> 01:31:06,939

A much more positive experience.

:

01:31:06,939 --> 01:31:15,894

Susie, I know you have all the tools, so uh is that kind of how you feel about uh going

into those depositions and crosses like that?

:

01:31:15,894 --> 01:31:25,647

Yeah, I mean, there's so much preparation and really scripting uh because you're designing

your examination, but the unexpected, you have to expect the unexpected.

:

01:31:25,647 --> 01:31:40,301

And I love Olivia's story about the scene where the potted plant lands in the actor's

hands, and he reacts by handing it over to the woman that he's wooing uh because he just

:

01:31:40,301 --> 01:31:41,852

like made it a part of the scene.

:

01:31:41,852 --> 01:31:43,562

I just love that story.

:

01:31:43,594 --> 01:31:46,014

it's really emblematic of what we do.

:

01:31:46,014 --> 01:31:54,741

Yes, and you can find that in our Acting for Trial Lawyers 100 on-demand course on our

website, because that's part of it.

:

01:31:54,741 --> 01:32:06,109

It's how do you deal with something that's scripted, but still stay nimble about it, still

adjust to your audience or your witness, um and that's what we study, that's what we do in

:

01:32:06,109 --> 01:32:06,619

the theater.

:

01:32:06,619 --> 01:32:10,132

So it kind of is that balance, that delicate balance.

:

01:32:10,232 --> 01:32:12,994

Steve, should we do our three favorite things today?

:

01:32:13,132 --> 01:32:19,180

I'll tell you one of my favorite things was cradling the dog in his arms.

:

01:32:19,180 --> 01:32:21,388

Oh my goodness.

:

01:32:21,388 --> 01:32:22,040

You took mine.

:

01:32:22,040 --> 01:32:23,558

I had cradling Tonki.

:

01:32:23,558 --> 01:32:25,012

I added the word, just a name Tonki.

:

01:32:25,012 --> 01:32:27,942

uh

:

01:32:28,038 --> 01:32:29,331

I'm very proud of the names.

:

01:32:29,331 --> 01:32:35,089

I'm very proud of the it was like Hannah Madison is like a double like who she is.

:

01:32:35,089 --> 01:32:42,339

uh But yeah, Tonki when I saw that name that that's a common Guatemalan name for a dog.

:

01:32:42,339 --> 01:32:43,540

I was like, yeah.

:

01:32:45,095 --> 01:32:46,716

Look at that.

:

01:32:47,037 --> 01:32:55,330

The image uh of the pastor not going over to make sure that one of the people in his

community was okay.

:

01:32:55,846 --> 01:32:58,050

And it felt like a rock.

:

01:32:58,050 --> 01:33:00,282

It felt like you were rolling over a rock.

:

01:33:00,282 --> 01:33:01,394

My goodness.

:

01:33:01,394 --> 01:33:03,897

That was uh so strong.

:

01:33:03,897 --> 01:33:07,022

That was such a strong uh leading question right there.

:

01:33:07,022 --> 01:33:09,755

I'm gonna add a fourth thing real quick.

:

01:33:09,755 --> 01:33:10,586

Sarah's cross.

:

01:33:10,586 --> 01:33:11,527

She wore a cross today.

:

01:33:11,527 --> 01:33:18,092

If you're just listening to this, just in complete character today, that's one of my

favorite things.

:

01:33:18,092 --> 01:33:19,905

Yes, absolutely.

:

01:33:20,127 --> 01:33:26,581

So Susie, where can people find you and can people book you to speak at events?

:

01:33:27,944 --> 01:33:29,395

I've at events.

:

01:33:29,395 --> 01:33:31,816

I'm a very low key attorney.

:

01:33:32,056 --> 01:33:40,440

I've been around for a long time, but I've done some big cases, including a Supreme Court

victory, US Supreme Court victory in an aviation case.

:

01:33:40,440 --> 01:33:45,402

And I am in Berkeley, California.

:

01:33:45,402 --> 01:33:49,514

And if you have the spelling of my name, you can find me online.

:

01:33:49,514 --> 01:33:50,124

So.

:

01:33:50,146 --> 01:33:53,977

We are gonna link it too, uh as well, so people can find you.

:

01:33:53,977 --> 01:33:54,938

Sarah, how about you?

:

01:33:54,938 --> 01:33:58,158

How can we keep up on what you're up to?

:

01:33:58,158 --> 01:34:06,801

Yeah, if anyone is in the LA area in June, I am performing at the Hollywood Fringe

Festival in my friend's show.

:

01:34:06,801 --> 01:34:08,792

It's called All Cats Go to Hell.

:

01:34:08,792 --> 01:34:10,772

Not sure how Hannah Madison would feel about that.

:

01:34:10,772 --> 01:34:17,514

ah But it's about a group of kids who accidentally blow up their neighbor's cat.

:

01:34:18,102 --> 01:34:19,442

which would be an interesting case.

:

01:34:19,442 --> 01:34:22,603

um So that's kind of fun.

:

01:34:22,764 --> 01:34:27,005

And I am on Instagram, saradottaylor13.

:

01:34:27,005 --> 01:34:27,965

Fantastic.

:

01:34:27,965 --> 01:34:29,086

Most of my antics.

:

01:34:29,086 --> 01:34:34,587

Yes, we will definitely connect into the show notes here.

:

01:34:34,587 --> 01:34:39,669

Well, if you are enjoying what we're cooking up on our podcast, make sure to follow us.

:

01:34:39,669 --> 01:34:43,158

Tell your colleagues about everything going on here in the Cross Lab.

:

01:34:43,158 --> 01:34:45,641

and uh give us a five-star review.

:

01:34:45,641 --> 01:34:48,795

ah Those things really help us get the word out.

:

01:34:48,795 --> 01:34:54,832

We think that what we're doing here is really important to make you a better advocate for

your clients.

:

01:34:54,832 --> 01:34:57,068

So don't be afraid to get the word out.

:

01:34:57,068 --> 01:35:00,390

Yes, Sarah and Suzie, thank you so much for joining us.

:

01:35:00,390 --> 01:35:08,204

Thank you, Sarah, for your insight into storytelling and into Hannah Madison and Suzie, uh

badass attorney.

:

01:35:08,204 --> 01:35:10,065

We so appreciate your time.

:

01:35:10,065 --> 01:35:13,035

Your clients are so, so lucky to have you.

:

01:35:13,035 --> 01:35:14,867

Thank you for joining us both.

:

01:35:15,018 --> 01:35:15,938

Thank you.

:

01:35:15,938 --> 01:35:16,848

Yeah.

:

01:35:16,848 --> 01:35:20,290

And we hope you take the best of today with you to court.

:

01:35:20,812 --> 01:35:22,465

Well, that's the end of our experiment.

:

01:35:22,465 --> 01:35:25,790

So we'll see you next time on CrossLab.

:

01:35:28,366 --> 01:35:34,168

Please like and subscribe to CrossLab wherever you get your podcasts or webcasts.

:

01:35:34,168 --> 01:35:37,570

If you really liked this podcast, please write a review.

:

01:35:37,570 --> 01:35:42,352

If you didn't, this podcast has been Paul Hollywood's Baker's Podcast.

:

01:35:42,352 --> 01:35:47,854

Thank you for listening to CrossLab, a trial house consulting production powered by

LawPods.

:

01:35:47,854 --> 01:35:55,837

To get free resources for your next trial, go to houseimprov.com, H-A-U-S improv.com.

:

01:35:55,837 --> 01:35:58,146

This program is written and produced

:

01:35:58,146 --> 01:36:02,414

by Steve Homan and Olivia Espinosa and edited by Mark Crespo.

:

01:36:02,414 --> 01:36:02,914

you

:

01:36:02,914 --> 01:36:08,977

The discussions and content presented in this podcast are for educational and

informational purposes only.

:

01:36:08,977 --> 01:36:13,719

They are not a substitute for professional legal advice, guidance or representation.

:

01:36:13,719 --> 01:36:22,423

Participation in this podcast, including cross examinations and feedback, takes place in a

simulated training environment with fictional witnesses and scenarios.

:

01:36:22,423 --> 01:36:26,505

Any resemblance to real persons, cases or events is purely coincidental.

:

01:36:26,505 --> 01:36:32,848

The views expressed by the hosts and guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect

the opinions of any organization

:

01:36:32,848 --> 01:36:35,231

or entities they may be affiliated with.

:

01:36:35,231 --> 01:36:43,779

House Team Productions and Law Pods are not responsible for the accuracy, outcomes, or

application of any content or strategies discussed during the podcast.

:

01:36:43,779 --> 01:36:50,075

If you have any specific legal questions or concerns, we encourage you to consult with a

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About the Podcast

Cross Lab
Experiment here, take the best to court.
Cross Lab is where trial attorneys get hands-on with the art of constructive cross-examination.

Hosted by career actors and expert storytellers Steve Hohman and Olivia Espinosa—who’ve played mock witnesses in over 1,500 cross-examinations—this podcast is packed with the POV you’re missing and won’t find anywhere else.

Join us as we bring together your attorney peers for realistic cross simulations, where they’ll share their trials (and errors), personal insights, and real-world experiences. You’ll also discover how different approaches to the same witness can impact both their testimony and your jury’s perception.

BONUS: No matter where you are in your career, you’ll bank TONS of fresh storytelling strategies, reusable cross chapters, and imagination-sparking word choices for your next depo or trial!

Don’t miss our special Cross-Pollination episodes, where we explore the layers of effective storytelling for audiences, alongside industry collaborators.

Tune in and subscribe to Cross Lab!

About your hosts

Olivia Espinosa

Profile picture for Olivia Espinosa
I’m Olivia Espinosa, a career actor, playwright, and director, fortunate to learn from industry icons like Golden Globe Winner Lily Gladstone, “Queen of Broadway” Idina Menzel and Tony Award-Winning director Tina Landau.

Amplifying voices that need to be heard- on stage and in the courtroom, is my mission.

My partner Steve Hohman and I have been cross-examined over 1,500 times by attorneys in 30 states, Canada, and the UK. That’s as much, if not more, than any expert witness out there. The difference? We want to use our powers for good. After sharpening our skills as realistic witnesses in Roger Dodd’s Trial Skills Clinic and in our private work, we know what makes a witness and jury tick.

Since 2022, we’ve consulted on cases resulting in over $38.1 MILLION in awards and a full acquittal– eliminating a 100-year prison sentence.

Cross Lab Podcast is based on my 30+ years of experience in storytelling combined with my work in the legal arena. We’ll share the techniques that make a difference- because when it comes down to it, your client’s future rests on how well you tell their story.

Steve Hohman

Profile picture for Steve Hohman
Hi, I’m Steve Hohman. Early in my theater career, I took a five-year detour as an auto insurance claims adjuster. Faced with upset customers and no training, I initially mimicked colleagues who argued until customers gave up. But my blood pressure and unresolved claims piled up. Then, I turned to tools from theater—active listening and "yes, and"—shifting focus to the customer. The results were transformative: claims were resolved, and customers became cooperative.

Later, working with Roger Dodd, co-author of Cross-Examination: Science and Techniques, I realized I’d been using constructive cross-examination all along. Since 2022, we’ve consulted on cases resulting in over $38 million in awards and a full acquittal, eliminating a 100-year prison sentence. We’ve been cross-examined over 1,500 times by attorneys across 30 states, Canada, and the UK—as much as any expert witness. The difference? We use our powers for good.

Now, on our podcast Cross Lab, we bring these experiences and accomplishments to you, offering valuable insights and tools you can use to elevate your own legal practice.

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