Cross Pollination: Storytelling that Makes a Difference—From Prison to the Courtroom

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We're not just actors. We've been cross-examined over 1,500 times in cross simulations to help train and coach some of the world's top trial attorneys.

We're not just trial consultants.

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Through live witness sparring, we'll test constructive cross techniques, share fresh insights, and explore new strategies.

And even though the testimony may be fake, the trial skills? Totally real.

So let's experiment, discover what works and have some fun in CrossLab. The show is brought to you by trial house consulting and powered by Lopods. Welcome to CrossLab. I'm Steve Holman. Today we're doing something a little different. We're calling these special episodes of CrossLab, Cross Pollination, where we bring together our community of theater makers. In this first Cross Pollination episode, we're going to be joined by producers, actors, playwrights and educators

and I'm Olivia Espinosa.

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who have a unique connection to the justice system. Playwrights Project is an organization in San Diego, California that has been teaching playwriting to students of all ages for 40 years. One of their programs, Out of the Yard, works with inmates at Centinella State Prison and Richard J. Donovan Correctional Facility, working hand in hand with inmates to create scripts that are, many times, based on their own experiences through the justice system.

And I am so excited to join our guests today because I actually worked with Playwrights Project for seven years teaching playwriting all the way from fourth grade to adults and in foster youth group homes and in juvenile detention facilities. And one of the most impactful stories that I remember was going into a classroom at juvenile hall and it was a classroom full of young men.

And we brought in actors to come and perform for these students because even though we're asking them to write a play, some of them have never seen live theater before. So we would bring in actors to present some scenes beforehand so they could get an idea of what a play is and the difference between first-person narrative and writing a play in dialogue. And after one of these scenes was done, I was asked the students, what kept you listening? And I'll never forget that one of the students raised their hand.

and said it made me forget that I was here in a maximum security prison. And that was not a regular classroom. And to be able to transport and transcend and really transform students in that way, even in this setting, is really, really impactful to me. And so I'm so excited to get to talk to our guests today. And I want to just preface this real quick. You're probably going to hear us talk a lot about main character.

And I just want you to, every time we say that, to know that that means your client and also audience. Our audience in the theater is made up of your same audience of jury members. So whenever we say audience, we're talking about your jury members too.

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In this episode, we will not only learn more about this unique program, but our aim is to uncover real insights on how stories come to life that can directly help you craft your case narrative for trial.

And so we hear this from attorneys all the time. I didn't learn this stuff in law school. I didn't learn how to tell a story. I didn't learn how to engage an audience.

So we hear this all like Olivia said, we hear it all the time. It's like it's on you. It's your extracurricular activity to learn how to tell a strong story. It's either taught by another attorney, passing it down or through trial and error, or you have to make your own effort like you are right now, listening to podcasts or taking workshops to learn that craft. we're really hoping that we're gonna give it to you from the source, people who actually teach this stuff all the time.

and get amazing stories from people who have never ever written a play or told a story in their life in this kind of a way. And I'm so excited. So let's jump into our first episode of cross pollination.

at Playwrights Project since: 2000

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Thank you, my pleasure.

And we also have Mabel Reynoso. She is a playwright, educator, and newly minted PhD who researches creative communities in carceral spaces and ways in which theater can amplify the silenced voices of mass incarceration. last but not, welcome, my bow. You're so welcome. And last but not least, have Arturo Medina. He is an actor, a playwright, and teaching artist.

Thank Thanks for having me.

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He's been seen on TV, film and stage, both in San Diego and Los Angeles. Arturo holds a BA from UCSD and has worked with amazing people like Luis Valdez, Jorge Huerta, El Chunky, Agosto Boal, Goyo Flores and Corky Dominguez. Welcome Arturo.

Thank you.

So to start, I would really love to know more about the program Out of the Yard and about Playwrights Project. Cecilia, can you tell us a little bit more about how the program got started and what inspired its creation?

s Project was founded back in: 1985

kids who have had difficult times, as you mentioned, the juvenile detention facilities and some of the foster youth in care in schools. And when we worked with them, they said, you know, why do you care about my story? Nobody cares about, know, whenever I tell them something, they think I'm lying anyway. And then we decided Olivia was with us at this part to start telling stories, which was our program for current and former foster youth. And it was, you know, we

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you have truths we told them, you have truths that nobody else does and you have stories that are important for us to hear and learn from and we learn from each other by telling the stories that we've experienced or that we imagine. And so as kids were aging out of that and we started following them into their adulthood and you know out of care and into the struggles that they encountered we realized why aren't we also working we're working with kids in juvenile hall why aren't we also working with adults in correctional facilities.

And so that was really what prompted us to continue because we recognized the power of having someone actually listening. And so many people don't have that in their lives. So to see that was the beginning of it. And we started off at Donovan and that was 11 years ago. And so we expanded to Centinello soon after and some of the jails and re-entry facilities just came along over the years. It's been an incredible journey.

Wow, thank you so much. I'm so excited to hear from you all about sort of what drives you, where this passion for this program and what drew you to this program came from. Mabel, can you tell us a little bit about your experience?

Yeah, so I think I started out working in the juvenile detention facilities. I was doing that. Cecilia originated the program in the adult prisons. And one of the things that's very different about working with youth versus working with adults in carceral spaces is that in the juvenile detention centers, it's

mandatory because our programming is typically a part of their schooling, so the language arts program, although I have participated in playwriting programs through their biology class and their math classes, which is interesting, but also speaks to the interdisciplinary value of playwriting across all subject matters. But working with adults in prison, it is voluntary. And so

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What keeps me going is the joy, the excitement, the curiosity that we get to share with our colleagues that are in the adult prisons. Because typically in juvenile detention, I say that it's a challenging residencies because there are a lot of issues at play. as you mentioned, working in a juvenile detention, is prison for kids.

So there's a lot of, there's a lot going on and it doesn't make it the easiest space to foster creativity. But in prison, there is a willingness for that escape that our participants are much more open to. There is less of a resistance, obviously, because they want to be there.

It is a volunteer program. What you're saying is in the adult prisons.

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For the most part, in the prisons it is, but in some of the jails it is. We thought they were volunteering and now we were assigned here, right? So in the jails it's not voluntary, it is an assigned. True.

I see, I see. Thank you for making that distinction. Arturo, what drew you to this program and to do this kind of work?

Honestly, I think I've always had a calling for working with people in need. I think it's just by fate, to be quite honest with you, that I found this group of people that are already doing it. For me, it's giving back. Giving back to those I know very well. They're my neighbors. They're my family members, unfortunately. They're people I know. You know what I'm saying?

fool.

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To be quite honest with you, mean, I don't think I chose it. I think it chose me, to be quite honest.

And in terms of that, does it sort of give you in terms of your drive to keep doing it?

I mean, in the short answer, cheap thrills. This is the, you know, it's, this gives you a high, unlike anything else. It's really satisfying. It's fulfilling. I really do feel that I'm doing something in the world, something productive. I'm doing something that is going to benefit somebody else's life, you know? So, it's really a no brainer to be quite honest with you. it's, gives me a lot of

satisfaction knowing that I gave somebody the gift of storytelling.

Well, I'd love to talk about that more because I think that's important. You know, even the story that I remember from juvenile hall, you can see the power of story right in front of your face and come to life. So Mabel, if you could talk a little bit about what you've seen in terms of really the power and the what can come about when that happens in real life.

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Yeah, I love this question because I have literally witnessed transformation before my very eyes. I will share the story that I've shared many times, but I'm very excited to share it all the time. we had a participant who would come to class and didn't speak at all and didn't look particularly happy to come to class, but he would come every time, you know.

And one day, one of the other participants shared a script, something that he had worked on, about a relationship between a father and son. They had an estranged relationship. The son was now an adult and had his own family. And after many years of being apart and the father having experienced addiction issues, they reconnected. And they had, and it was a beautiful ending.

to the story where the father is now a part of his grandkids lives and it was just a really powerful, beautiful story. And obviously the playwright drew from his own experiences, but this, the other participant started tearing up. And again, had never spoken before, had just looked very angry all the time. And then he started talking and he said, I connected with that, that's my story with my mom.

and then just started talking. And somebody else in our group said, I didn't even know you could talk. And he, from that moment on, he became such a vocal ambassador for the program about the value that he got, the positivity that he experienced. He ended up writing multiple plays.

and really benefit from the program. He would talk about his family. Like he just opened up, it unlocked something. That moment, that sharing of that script unlocked something within him that I think left an impression with him, certainly with me, you know, hopefully that will, you know, benefit him for years to come. But I think that that speaks to the power of storytelling. We never know how we're gonna connect with people. And that's one of the things that is really exciting about

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when someone in our classes first discovers the possibilities of what it means to tell their own story, who is going to resonate with that?

He talked about telling his family about it, right? And they're like, what? You're closed off. You don't talk like that. You wrote plays? And he said, yeah, I am closed off, but not in here. mean, it opened him

Wow, that's amazing. Cicely Arturo, do you have anything in terms of what you have witnessed in the power of story?

I think it's on a daily basis really. I think I love that example that Mabel gave because it is really about hearing someone else's story and then being free to open up. But I think there are people too who come in and go, I want to tell my story and I know what I want to tell them and here's the moment. And they sometimes will just see it from one side. And when we talk about the stories, it's like, well, there are other characters and they also have their motivations and their reasons for acting how they did.

each person is not coming in just to sabotage the other person. We're all, you know, fully fleshed human beings who have flaws and who have strengths. And we're not judging you. We all have our flaws and our strengths. And I think that's really the basis of all of it. But I've had, you know, participants who then started looking at the other characters in different ways, or we said, let's act, let's improvise this. Let me play the mother. Let me show you what maybe they what could they have been thinking, you know, were they frustrated with what

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this particular, know, so just teasing out some ideas and then jumping into an improv when, and then they've walked away going, I didn't, I never thought of it that way. Right. So being able to see another's point of view.

That's really interesting. There's a whole program that lawyers go to, or they call it psycho drama. It's basically improv in a dramatic way, but they try to draw the stories out in a very similar fashion. and so it, it, it works though. I mean, it's, and when we're talking about not, that's a third, that's like a third person perspective that they're taking when they're doing that, when you're actually doing this with the person that experienced these, these events and all that. And you can see how that story comes alive when you kind of embody.

embody the story. that's, that's such a great insight right there. It just connects with me with, with other things that we've seen, you know, in the industry or amongst, you know, trying to create compelling stories. So thanks, Cecilia. That's great.

It's just awesome. It's awesome to give voice or allow people to have a voice. People who probably have not had a chance to use this form of expression in a positive way. Not only that, but to give them the tools, show them how to do it a little better than what they've been taught before or if they've been taught at all. Watching them grow, watching them use this tool.

and then watching them just navigate through life with it. You know what I'm saying? It's not just a form of art, but I mean, it's the form of expression. It's what they do with it that really shows and it keeps them coming back, really. I think once they do it once, it's kind of like the acting bug. Once it bites you, man, it's there. You want more of it. And then I think what happens is as they get better, they find that they can rewrite their own story as well.

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How do you, knowing that people have, you know, are writing potentially from their own lives and they've had long lives and all the, you know, the ups and downs, like where do you even typically get a playwright to start? You know, and just thinking about the attorneys that we work with and so many facts are on the table, so many aspects of their client's life they have to, you know, tell, but starting with that big chunk of facts and ideas can be really daunting. So is there typically a seed

that y'all start with when it comes to beginning that process. I see you smiling already, my bell.

So there's, I offer up two different things. And one of them is what I use in my own life, because I'm a playwright. And so when I am at a loss for what to write about, I like to draw upon advice that was given to me by Marcia Norman, by the playwright Marcia Norman, which is to write from rage. And that's like, find the thing that is

that it's really upsetting you, bothering you and start from that. And so I would say that most of my work comes from that. And I think that's good advice and it might be controversial for some people, but I firmly believe that if we are doing this work, as I believe theater for me is political and I use it as a tool for social justice, liberation, resistance, it has to come from that.

place for me that very passionate seat of things that I want to change. And if if it's something that I want to change is something that I have to be pretty angry about to keep the energy going. So that's one thing. The other the other nugget that I offer up is the question. What are you curious about? What is the thing that is that that you want to know more about that you want to explore more about? Because we're writing plays. You have to stay interested in it. And so

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So what is the thing that you're curious enough about to live with this idea for several weeks at a time to want to draw it out and to explore different possibilities? So that is more so than writing towards a message. Like what is a question that you seek to answer?

And I know each all three of you write, you know, have your own classrooms of people and that you teach. So in terms of where you would typically start, Arturo, what would you say your initial entrances?

I start with what I call low-hanging fruit. Stuff that's close to you, stuff that's personal, stuff that you know. And then go out from there. I have a technique that I use where I start with myself and tell me who you are. Tell me a little bit about yourself. A lot of times, believe it or not, people are hesitant to want to share or they don't feel it's that important. So I start from there and then I say, okay, let's talk about the person in third person.

You know, let's talk about him now. Let's, you know, we're talking about this particular person. Now let's, let's, let's pack it on. So then all of a sudden they start talking about themselves at third person outside of themselves. And then they start building like this guy. yeah, no, he used to be an artist when he was a kid and he was a dreamer when he was young. And then they go from there. And then I, I asked them about where they came from. So they learn to develop a character, which is themselves.

And then we talk about where they came from, their setting, setting. And then we put the person, you know, the setting into the setting, and then we start talking about the play. But what I do is I kind of use that that technique there to start describing things. So when we start talking about their neighborhood, for instance, what's it smell like? What's it taste like? What's it look like? You know, in the morning, at night. And sometimes you get some interesting stories, you know.

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They'll tell you about chile relleno in the morning. They'll tell you about, know, carne at night. You know, stuff like that. And then all of a sudden when you start talking in terms of your sensory, you know what mean? Then all of sudden you start picking up on things and hey, well, that's right. There's this, there's that. And they start painting the picture, if that makes any sense.

No, it makes 100%. We spend so much time with the attorneys that we work with doing that exact same thing when they're trying to paint a picture and really trying to identify individual moments, little facts about things that can be experienced in that way. And then that's where you bring your audience in. Obviously you're bringing your playwright into this, but...

those are such powerful things that can elicit to just start getting people's, their brains firing and they start living that story. They're no longer separated from that. It's not something that they're away from. They're completely, become completely ingrained into the story that you're trying to tell. So that makes complete sense to me. And it's something that we hammer all the time. So I did want to ask you, cause you know, it's something that we haven't talked about in this episode. Audrillo, you've actually had,

when you were a younger man, you had an experience you went through the justice system. And, and, and, and that's where you kind of rebirthed yourself and, and became who you are today or that road to who you are today. But you know, going to that moment, there's one thing that you just said right now that really struck a chord with me as far as believing that there's, you know, the people that you're working with, the students that you have, believing that their story doesn't matter.

I want to, I want to know when you were, you know, working with your attorney or whoever that attorney that represented represented you and they're trying to tell your story. How much, mean, first of all, what was that like, but how much did you actually value your story when you were working with that person? How much did they value your story in return?

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I've had experience with a few lawyers and let me start off by saying as a kid, lawyers are just lawyers. We don't know that there's a difference. We don't know the difference between personal injury lawyers and criminal lawyers. And the unfortunate thing is that some of us, some of our families as well, we get taken advantage of. My first lawyer was a personal injury lawyer and I was looking at forever today. And so he didn't...

bothered telling us that this was out of his scope or out of his expertise. And so I've had that experience before. think having the right lawyer who understands who you are or how much of your past can actually help the case matters big time. I mean, it really does. I've had

lawyers who were supposed to be really good because they have this reputation that sucked because they didn't listen. They went in there already with an agenda. They went in there with we're just going to hit them with this. And I had to shut up and just sit there and allow that to happen. And it didn't work out for me. And then I've had other guys with that just sit there and listen to every everything, every rotten detail.

you what I'm saying? And sometimes it's overkill. So I think having to find the right balance is super important. You don't want to give up too much, but you want to give up the goods or not give up. You want to share the important things that may help this thing.

Yeah, at the time, could you feel like these were people that you could open up to or what felt, what made you feel like you could when you did have that person?

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be honest with you, I'm not really sure I felt like I could open up. didn't understand. I was too young. My first lawyer, was 14 years old. And he wanted me to spill everything, but I didn't understand that client privilege, client attorney privilege. I didn't understand that. I didn't understand that there is some confidentiality and this is against law if he shares stuff that I don't want.

I don't think I understood that. Not only that, I didn't really know what, whose side he was on. You know, I didn't know. I mean, sure, I was the one meeting with him, but he's also meeting with the DA. You know, he's the DA and him are friends. You know, it's like, don't, that is, it just, it just was so awkward to me. It was very, just, just, I didn't believe it. I didn't believe that this is really happening. You know I'm saying? He was making friends, they're having coffee and then.

They're making deals on the side and just with my life, you know? So I wasn't quite sure if I felt open to really share. I felt like I had to give them a fake version of me. I've had other lawyers and as I got older and I found to be honest with you, you there's also this myth out there that public defenders are the worst lawyers to get.

And they're not really, they really are not, which is really sad because I spent tens of thousands of dollars on lawyers, my God, where I had a public defender not too long ago where this lady kicked butt, you know, and she actually worked for me. She listened. I mean, at the end of the show, I gave her a giant hug, which is, you know, a big giant no, no in the criminal justice community. You don't touch your lawyer. You know what I'm saying? A public defender, but she actually worked better.

And I actually felt I could open up to her of all the people. I spent, like I said, I spent tens of thousand dollars with these other guys where I felt like I had to give them a fake version of me so that they could go into court and display that fake version as the real me.

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And like you said, it didn't work out because it wasn't authentic. It wasn't your story. And this is the thing that we see all the time. The more authentic, the more real that story is. That's the story. mean, because there were, we're speaking about and you all, I can't remember. think it was Cecilia brought it up about trauma. These are people with trauma. And it's the same thing with the clients, the lawyers that we work with and their clients. They're all working with people who've been traumatized.

either by injury or they're in the crib, they're needing representation because they're involved in criminal justice type scenario. But these are people, and I think this is I was trying to get at too is that when you're a traumatized person, first of all, it's hard to want to talk about it because it's not a fun thing to relive, of course.

but there's also this thing where, like, when, when these people, you know, they feel, you know, that, that trauma, kind of devalues people sometimes too. And, and you really have to, you got, you, have to build that trust for sure. I think.

You know, you also got to understand that once once going to trial going to trial, your whole life is going to be turned inside out. You know, your whole life, everything about you is going to be thrown out there. Stuff that you would never, ever talk to anybody about. And it's going to be out there for everybody to see. And you're never the same coming out. You know what I'm saying? I mean, now the whole world knows about X, Y, Z, you know, you know, whether it's

you know, the weird stuff that happens at home that nobody talks about, it's going to come out. And not only that, but now you're not only being judged by those 12 people, now you're gonna, you have to deal with your family as well. And then here comes all that and do you still have a family? Am I gonna have a home to go to after this trial? You know, and it's terrible. So you don't, you gotta be careful almost with how much you give, how much information.

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because now the lawyer is going to throw that out there and use it to fight your case. it's all of a sudden you're like, maybe I shouldn't have said that. Maybe I don't want that to be displayed. Maybe I should just try my luck with something else.

How do you in terms of just knowing that trauma and the trust, all the things that come into play when you are when you are putting yourself out there, how do you sort of begin that process, Mabel and Cecilia, when it comes to having, you know, people trust you with with their stories, Cecilia, you know, just for me, it's like I walk in there and I know it's like

I don't, they can see I don't belong there, right? I've never been in a place like that. then, so for me, I feel like I'm fighting against that, but I want so badly to, you know, to instill that trust. So how do you do that, Cecilia? Where do you start?

think we come in as authentically as we can. You know, we recognize that we are just passing through and they are going to have to go back into these little boxes and live and, you know, put their head on their pillow and it's a hard thing, right? I mean, we are not of that world and we tell them, you we feel very honored to be able to be there to work with them to bring in the joy and the love that we have of theater.

and to share that with them to explore and to process. think theater is very therapeutic, right? And so we come in as our authentic selves and we recognize that we don't have the answers and we're not afraid to say, I don't know about that, explain it to me, right? And I think sometimes if we came in and said, I've seen this on TV, I watch those shows about lockup and whatnot, they'd be like,

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you know, nothing, which is true. You know, nothing from those. That's not the real experience. That's not the real causative factors. That's not, you know, anything relevant. It's, it's anyway, sensationalizing something. But coming in and having a genuine interest in story, a genuine recognition that we are all flawed human beings who have stories that we use to process and understand the world around us and ourselves and each other. And I think that's just coming in.

in that way is really.

just, it really reminds me of, you know, you, don't end up in court in any way, unless a lot of different things have gone poorly, right? There's a lot of different things that, that a lot of it may have been out of their control or some of it was bad choices or that maybe it wasn't that what happened that time, but what bad choices before. And we've seen the best attorneys that we've seen.

they find a way to fall in love with their clients. And that's such an important thing. And, I wanted to pass it on to you, my bell about what's that process like, because the people you are, are, are teaching and you're working with, mean, these are like Cecilia said, they're deeply flawed people. Sometimes they've done probably terrible, terrible things that would horrify even you or anybody else, but to, to find that

you we've talked about that redeeming quality or that that human human quality in them. What's that process like for you?

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think we, those of us who do this work go in recognizing that human beings are multi-dimensional and recognizing that we are often going into a place where people have been sentenced for the worst thing that they have ever done and that there is, that we are all universes. We all walk around as human beings, we all have a universe within us. So there is so much more to us.

than the thing that landed you in the place that you're at. I will say that one of the things that I think is most important about building that trust is showing up. It's simply showing up. It's not gonna happen right out the gate necessarily, but you continue to show up because we're committed to the work and...

and people start to recognize you and know that you're gonna be there when you said you were gonna be there regardless of weather and other mitigating circumstances. But that care that we develop comes with just a genuine curiosity. How can you spend time with someone and not develop a sense of care and concern for them?

I mean, we, that's like, again, showing up and learning about who's in the room, right? How do you not develop that sense of care? That this is our creative community. This is our family. These are my brothers in many ways, right? And these are my creative colleagues, definitely. And so I would say that, that I think that recognizing that we are all flawed,

human beings. all have done things that we are not proud of and knowing that that we're going in there to talk to be artists together. I think that's another thing like we're not even talking about the thing that brought us all in and for me that is what drew me to the work that's true what drew me to doing this to begin with and working with any population is just I love storytelling. I love working with others to draw out stories that is at the heart of my what lights me up is just

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is just getting other people to see the possibility in their own storytelling abilities. And so we go into a space as artists in community, like, I'm not thinking as I walk through the door that this person harms themselves or other people that they love. I'm thinking like, hey, we're gonna talk about 15 plays today and it's gonna be amazing. And that's what we're here for.

Can I jump in on that? when you said recognizing that everybody's deeply flawed and yeah, but I'm also recognizing we're flawed, right? I mean, we are, but I'm also recognizing that we're all have strengths. So it's more the strengths and you know, some of the people that we work with have never been told they have strengths. And so when we come in and say, my gosh, this writing is brilliant. You have so many creative ideas and there's like, what? I failed school. How can you even say that? And nobody has ever told me I'm brilliant. Nobody's ever told me I'm even smart. And

Nobody ever, you I got passed along. In fact, in one particular person said, nobody white person has ever said anything nice to me. Right. And so we can overlook that too, that not only are the causative factors, not only are the circumstances that land someone in jail, but there is a, there is a lot of prejudice that lands that people are looked at because of the color of their skin, where somebody else who is white might not have been put away for the same crime. so it's. Yeah.

It's not just one side that there's so many angles to it all, but we walk in recognizing that we're all human and that we all have flaws, we all have strengths, we all have weaknesses, we all have fears, you know? So it's just kind of finding that common ground and being real together.

Well with that, I think it's a perfect time for a break and we want to talk about really quickly our partners at LawPods. Lawyers think that LawPods are just the company that produces the TLU and Trial Lawyer Nations podcasts, but actually they create a lot of podcasts with lawyers just like you to help reach non-lawyers, aka your potential clients.

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That's right podcasts let your audience get to know and trust you and Robert Ingalls and his team make podcasting easy

With over a hundred million people expected to listen to podcasts this year, there's never been a better time to get this as a tool for getting your practice out there to the public.

And to get more info, visit LawPods, L-A-W-P-O-D-S dot com. Tell them we sent you.

Welcome back from the break.

We are here together with our friends at Playwrights Project, Cecilia Cuma, Mabel Reynoso, and Arturo Medina.

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So we want to get into the story. if we're my value did a great job of bringing up we yes storytelling is the reason why we are actually not just what you do, but what we're here to do to talk about today. So, but I think everything that you all were shared with us is so important as far as being able to draw that story out of out of people. Cause that's something that that the attorneys have to deal with all the time is trying to draw. And that's something that we do when we're working with them with their clients.

But when we talk about the story, one of the things that really fascinates me about the, I don't want to say the parameters that you have creating stories with these inmates, they are not allowed to write scenes because they're in, you know, for obvious safety reasons, they are not allowed to have like a fight scene. They're not allowed to show violence in or act that violence out.

in their plays. So with that in mind, how do you make the audience feel invested in that moment that we don't get to witness on stage when you're when you're crafting these stories with with with your your students? How do you how do you how do you what are the elements you really need to get to make that just as a compelling moment as anything else or probably the most compelling moment?

in one of the plays that they're writing.

As you said, Steve, we have certain rules because we're in an institution that we cannot glorify violence, but we do that with all of our writing for Playwrights Project. We don't want to glorify negative behavior, so we do keep the violence off stage. We certainly encourage people to write about violence if that's a part of the story that they want to tell, and it's certainly something that we need to understand better and that we should be examining and learning from constantly. Isn't that what theater is for?

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practice behaviors and learn about the impact. And so we talk about keeping the violence off stage, focusing on what led to the violence. Why did it seem like that was the answer for this character? And then focusing on what happened as a result of the violence. We don't have to see it. We have to learn about why it felt like it was the only choice. We have to learn about how it impacted that individual and others. And so I think because that really is the main meat of the story is that impact on people.

I think that it's not a switch, you know, to say, okay, let's just say it's already happened. We don't need to see it. We don't need to glorify it. don't, but instead let's understand it. Let's ask questions about it and let's see how it landed.

Now, I'm glad that you said that because it happens with attorneys too. mean, they're retelling a story that an audience is never going to see, right? So it's how do you make that impact? What are those things that you focus on instead to bring those moments alive? And it's really about what attorneys do, hopefully, which is focusing on the impact that it's caused in someone's life, whatever that inciting incident or that moment is, to focus on that.

And so I guess my other question too would be knowing that we don't see those things. Are there things that we do need to know as an audience? Does that make sense? Like if we don't ever get to see it, what are those things that make us feel like we are there? What do we need to make sure to infuse in that? Mabel, is there anything you want to add?

So I say motivation. it's like, we talk about this all the time. What is the character, what does the main characters want or need? Right? And I think that that is one of the most useful ways to draw an audience in to understand the story is by understanding what that motivation is. And it's not just in the animation for the main character, like other characters have motivations as well. So I like to shy away from the binary of,

(: 42:19

the protagonist and antagonist, right? And instead of look at opposing motivations.

I think that's exactly, know, from the description that Cecilia gave as far as, you know, showing all the things that happened up to the events of whatever that, that violent event happened that was an important event. And then seeing the repercussions, I just think that is basically when you're talking about a really great narrative for the courtroom, those are the things that you, that are the most important is why, what led to this.

and what happened afterwards. you know, there's one thing that, that when we're, helping craft that, that kind of a narrative, there's, there's something that we talk about is like, conclusionary statements versus factual statements. And I want to relate it back to you, but when we're talking about conclusionary statements, it's like someone's opinion or an emotion, they're not as strong, like a character saying, I, I, I'm, I, I'm mad, but not knowing why, not having a factual that, that

concrete reason and I want to know like when I open this up to you Arturo when When you are trying to find those those story building details to help, you know Really push that story along. Do you find yourself looking for those like those concrete like action type moments? And I don't mean like action like in an action movie. I just mean like things that are are are beyond

a feeling or an opinion about a character, but an actual, an action that happens in the story that helps push, push, that understanding forward about their character.

(: 44:04

Well, think too much action is overstimulating. know, even if you look at a movie that, action movie, is it always shoot them up, bang, bang? I mean, there's gotta be a time where you gotta let you release. I need to connect with the character. I need to connect something about him, about him or her, has to be relatable.

I have to be able to relate to want to fit into their shoes or to even want to go on this journey with the character. You know what mean? So I got to find the human in them. I got to find the thing that connects me to them or something that makes me want to know the ending. You know what I'm saying? Because there's a lot of times that man, I mean, just look at all the movies. You can watch a John Wick movie, but if you don't care about dogs, the movie is not.

get your face. If you don't care about dogs, you don't then it's just another movie. It's just another story. Another, you know, shoot them up, bang, bang movie. You see what I'm saying? But if you find the thing that connects you two humans together that all of a sudden you go, yeah, that could be me. You know, and then all of a sudden you go, hmm, okay, let me tell me about your worst day. Let's let's learn about your worst day. And then all of a sudden, you're not so much concerned about the

Action you're considering you're looking at the options that the person had what are the option then all of a sudden you start? Humanizing the person you know they're not Monsters you know you and then you start thinking what would I have done? You know what am I that far separated from this individual or would I have done the same thing?

Yeah, and I was gonna say I think action is the wrong word I was I meant like an event those events that happen and so what you're describing is you know is finding that those those qualities of Trying to root for someone that that that main character that you want to root for and so when you do get to those moments of those events those pivotal events those things that are beyond

(: 46:16

And that's what I meant beyond like an opinion. It's it's the events that happen that make that story. Then you can really contextualize, like you said, those choices that that and that can that could really make someone like root for or pull for your main character, which I think we're always trying to do it no matter how complicated your main character is your main character. So you want to you want them to succeed, right? It's our poll. We want that to happen.

Cecilia, do you have something to add?

Yeah, I was thinking of a story that Olivia, when Olivia was teaching with us, there was a young man in juvenile hall who was talking about the day he, his cousin, believe, a cousin, I believe was shot in the park and he was there. And that was the moment he wanted to write about. And that it was really hard to say, well, you can't have the violence on stage. And so we

What Olivia did, which was really brilliant, was she slowed it down. She said, let's theatricalize it. Let's step out of yourself in this moment. Let's talk about step by step of what happened. he's talking about seeing a car going by. That car isn't one familiar. The window going down. A gun coming out the window. The feel of it. so it was more like you step forward and he's recounting the story. We're not seeing it happen on stage. We're hearing him recount it.

imagining a spotlight on this character and he sees the gun come out. He sees the bullet whiz by, hitting his ear and he looks behind him and sees his cousin fall to the floor. And so it's not, we're not seeing it, but we are hearing him telling that moment instead. And it was so, so such an impactful moment for him and for everyone who was listening. I'm sure you remember that.

(: 48:04

Yeah, yeah, I do. Thank you for bringing that up. I think also what it does too, it's connecting it to what we tell attorneys is that when you do that, when you are taking it step by step like that, and when you are taking out any opinion and you're just putting in those fact by fact steps, it allows us to then relive it along with you. Because you're not showing us what just happened out here and we're just seeing it.

we're actually feeling it on the inside with you because you're taking us through it with you incrementally. And so I am so glad that you brought that up because that makes a really big difference. Some of those things that you can just do to tweak the language or to just kind of slow a moment down in its incremental steps to allow me as an audience to feel that investment because I'm there too. You're bringing it to life for me. Yeah, putting me in the front seat.

I want to move on to this idea that, you know, as playwrights, as, you know, even just watching playwrights go through their thing, when we read it on the page and we, the dots aren't connecting for us, but the playwrights like, yeah, that's just like that. And we're like, well, wait, that wasn't even in there. That moment's not in there. And it happens to attorneys too. And you're so close to a story that you just, it's in your head and you don't realize it's not on the page. So what are some things that

a writer can do to make sure that those everything we're supposed to be filled in as an audience that makes sense to you is also the journey that we are going on mobile.

hear it out loud and in front of other people. mean, theater is meant for audiences. So we see this in our class time and time again, where a new playwright wants to write the script in, you know, in solitude and then not share it until the very end because, you know, doesn't want to spoil the ending for everyone and wants it to be a big surprise, which is amazing. I get it. It's exciting. They're excited about their story. They're excited about the reactions they're going to get. But

(: 50:13

As theater artists, have to understand that theater is about collaboration. It is an agreement between what's happening on the stage and what's happening in the audience. And that's that contract that we are working with each other, not for each other. so hearing the story out loud is really, really important. Workshopping it is really important for the playwright to see what their blind spots are, what's missing.

My audience is not a mind reader. They can't see what's in my head and make assumptions. And we tell people, trust your audience sometimes, but that only works to a certain point. Yes, if the best advice that we tell playwrights is just hear it out loud and hear it out loud in front of other people who can also hear the story and point out what might be missing. And also not just what's missing, but what's working, right?

because we should be looking at this from an asset-based perspective. What is working? What are the glimmers and the pops?

I like that. You know, it's one thing you said right there, right now, my belt that that really struck a chord with me was the accessibility part. Like, you know, coming from the improv community, there's, there's like people who don't like wanna, they want to just do what they want and not be as accessible. And I was always in that thing of like, hey, we're trying to tell a story. And it's, you know, important. Why am I here? It's just

to tell a story to the audience. So I want that to be accessible. This is meant for people who know nothing, know zero about what you're trying to present. And you have to think about it in that way. Like I have, who is my audience? Someone who doesn't have the same experience or knowledge that I have. And I have to assume there's somebody in there that knows nothing, absolutely zero about any of this. So it sounds like that's something that's a guiding light for when you're developing or helping develop these plays.

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Yeah, I think you bring up a very good point. It's like, who is your audience? Like, who am I trying to, what am I trying to do with this piece? What am I trying to communicate? Whose attention do I want to grab? I think there are certain instances where that ambiguity works. And I think it has a like horror, think is really great for ambiguity. We don't need to know all the answers. And sometimes our own imagination makes it creepier. But.

in certain instances when you are trying to, especially when you're trying to get the majority approval of the audience, you want that applause. It is important to make the story accessible, to fill in those gaps, to not lose your audience, right? Because we want to keep the audience invested, engaged, entertained, so that we earn that applause at the end.

And that can mean, you know, the kind of language that's used. Um, you know, especially if there's like something technical or a slang that, that people might not know, like to, be able to, without translating it, make it accessible. I think that's a better way of saying it. Um, but that's such a great thing. And, and for attorneys, like that's everything that's your jury, you know, it's like, these are the normal people. And if you don't speak to them, like,

Like you're trying to reach every single one of them, not just some of them that have a certain education or certain understanding that you do. You're going to lose somebody or you are, you're at danger. How about that? At least you're at danger of, of, of losing somebody.

I was gonna say that not everybody obviously is writing about a personal story. And sometimes we're in our group, in our groups, it's just really about getting the opportunity to laugh together. And so sometimes people will write plays that are just going to speak to their peers and it's gonna be fun for them. And we might feel left out of it and we're like, wow, I don't get that. And so, we'll explain, we don't understand that humor. That's not in our vocabulary. If you want it to have a wider appeal, then you might wanna figure out.

(: 54:14

to find ways to say and give us hints as to what it actually means. But that's okay too in our setting. We just want everyone to feel the joy of being able to create something and to be voice whatever it is that they need. If it's a good chuckle, then by all means go for it and write a funny play and we'll be laughing along right with you. But that may not work in your setting.

Well, no, but, it's knowing your audience and knowing your purpose, I guess, is the better way of saying that. And, if accessibility is that, then you have to keep that in mind, the whole time. So it's really thinking about that. And I think that's what, what you just shared is knowing and thinking about it in that.

Is there, would you guys say that there is a particular student or experience, you guys all have so much experience in theater and creating stories, but is there something that a student has taught you, something new about storytelling that you now apply to your work? Arturo, do you have anything like that?

learning every day. Every day I'm learning from somebody. Every day somebody's teaching me something. know, again, a lot of times, no, not a lot. There's sometimes you can get caught up with who you are in society. You know what I mean? I've learned all this and therefore I'm going to teach all this. And then you forget that there are kids that don't know any of this stuff. So you have to water it down. You have to know your audience again.

But every day it's an opportunity to learn something new. think what I'm learning out of this program here is that be more creative with your words. I'm gonna steal somebody else's phrase is be impeccable with your words. Because all of a sudden, these words, all these words have meaning and they can be very powerful if used correctly.

(: 56:09

Inside, you know, I was talking with the guys and I said, sure, you can use that word. And then I get together with Cecilia. She's like, no, we can't use that word. And it's like, it's not it's thing. but but that's the thing is that it's very easy to get caught up with. How do I say with with the everyday jargon? You know what mean? Everyday, everyday slang. It's very easy to water stuff down.

but now challenge yourself, challenge these guys, and then in return, they challenge us back. Well, how would you use that phrase or word? I don't know, how would you use it? So yeah, it's an everyday thing. think use your words impeccably.

Well, I think that's I'm going to flip that too, because a lot of times, you know, attorneys are in their world in their jargon and their words of art and their juries are not. And even though they might be up against a judge, like how many judges hear the same kind of case over and over again and to give them something different, give them something new and ignite their imagination. Right. But the idea is that you're really trying to bring everybody with you and nobody's excluded. And I think that's even the same thing with that word choice that you're talking about that.

Maybe that would exclude somebody or put a different light on them. But this is really about let's do all this together because we have to. This is, you know, it's going to be everybody's job to take action and to make a choice together. But I think that that's part of that. What is that language that we can all agree upon and that takes us to the same place so that we can all, you know, work together and be on the same page. And now is the perfect time to take a quick break. We want to tell you about what we do at Trial House.

We help attorneys in private sessions and in coaching to help you be a better advocate for your client.

(: 58:04

We can help you in so many different ways from learning new trial skills or cross-examination skills to your opening statements and even working with your clients to be great advocates for themselves in depositions or in cross-examinations and trial.

The best way to reach out to us is to go to our website, trialhouse.com. That's H-A-U-S, trialhouse.com. And we've got two free resources for attorneys on there. One to help you craft a compelling narrative for your jury and another to help you get storytelling gold from your witnesses that's gonna help you put a wonderful case together. And you can schedule a 30 minute

storytelling consultation with us.

No strings attached no pressure. We just want to meet you We want to talk with you and learn more about your practice and a case that's coming up You might actually get some really good advice at the very very least once again trial house calm H a US we hope to talk to you soon And once again, we are back from our break

joined by our friends at Playwrights Project, Cecilia Cuma, Mabel Reynoso, and Arturo Medina. Let's go ahead and get started. I'm reminded of a quote that I heard Howard Stern say, think something about how songwriters have to live with their heart open. And because you're always just receiving something that's outside of you or from somebody else or something that you're picking up in the ether. And I think that that's something that attorneys forget, that they are writers, that this is also an art form.

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and that they are creators and just being open to listening and receiving information from other sources, other places, also their clients, obviously, but that sparks, those sparks can come from anywhere. I will say that thanks to Playwrights Project, and I added up, I think I've helped about 1,400 plays come to life. And in the seven years that I was there.

But it is now my superpower to be able to pinpoint the holes and the gaps in the story or to figure out the tone and what shifts need to be made and what can be done elsewhere to kind of help develop that story. So I am so grateful to you all for my time there. I wanna talk real quick about in general, know, what y'all do and is difficult. I remember my time in juvenile hall and I would come home.

drained, I would come home wanting to help more and be available more to the students inside. What do you all do? How do you, I don't know, separate yourselves or take care of yourselves in those areas when you have to come home and, you know, live your day-to-day life? Arturo.

people up.

hahahahah

(: 01:01:02

That's I mean up until recently I used to own a gym so I would beat people up And not go to jail. It was a beautiful thing No, know, okay, so I Believe in the balance of the mind body in the soul. You got to feed your mind. You got to feed your soul You got to feed your body, you know, you got to And I do believe in this balance and it's in its constant changing, you know

It's kind of a, it's a dance. It's a dance. It's in motion constantly. And it could be, it can be knocked off its balance very easy. You know, you have a bad day at the office. have one of the yards is locked down or you find out one of your guys was injured or in an incident, you know. I'm sure that's a little nerve wracking. You know what I'm saying? They come and ruin your day, you know, and how do you not take it home, you know, for the amount of time, you know, was sharing with these ladies here that

you know, that they spend more time with these guys than their families do. You know, how do you not get bothered when something happens, you know? So, I mean, of course we gotta take care of ourselves. I I believe in the power of exercise. You know, for me personally, I have to exercise extremely hard in order for me to feel. I mean, I have to really get sore for me to feel like I did something. You know what I'm saying?

Same thing when I go to work, really have to put in some time and I really have to come out knowing I did something. I gotta feel it, basically. So I'm using the term, you know, feeling sore after a workout, figuratively, that's kind of what I have to, I have to feel it.

Yeah, I've seen this with you Cecilia when we were just working on the thing at San Diego State earlier this year, you know, getting phone calls from some of the students that you work with and that it is feels like a 24-7 kind of thing. So how do you manage and balance that?

(: 01:03:05

Well, I'm not very good at it, I must say. I think so the phone calls were not from anyone inside, but from from returned folks who have been part of our writing circle outside. But I mean, I, I am a mother, I am a sister, I am a friend, I, you know, I feel things with our with our participants, and I am okay with that. I'm okay with having a place in my heart for that. And I'm not, you know, I

they'll sometimes laugh because I cry at their scripts. You know, it's like, ah, she cries. I just mean it's good. Like, yes, it does. But, but no, I think that the having the honest emotion is is what I need for myself. And I think that they need to see that too, that it's okay to express emotion, that it's okay that you can impact other people's feelings and that that that's a valuable thing. And I think probably my

my greatest taking care of myself is having conversations with them about because we'll we remind each other that it's about the moments and we can't change. We can't impact everybody's life and we're only there for two hours in a week if that you're right. And so we are such a small part of their lives but but it's a meaningful it's meaningful and the moments that we can bring are worth it. You know any of the sadness or the worry.

I think I echo Cecilia's sentiments. Like, yes, I think I didn't realize how powerless I was as a human being until I started working in prison and realizing that there are things that are heartbreaking that I have, there is nothing I could possibly do that would change the situation. And, you know, obviously that is...

I don't know, that's not a revelation to anyone, but it was for me. And I think I sit with that now. And I just, you know, I live with that, but I also live with the joy. I don't know if people realize how much joy and how much laughter and how much fun and play happens when we're there. And it's not because of us, right?

(: 01:05:26

We unlock the door to the chapel, but it's not like they bring the joy. They are ready to play. They are ready to be goofy and silly with us. And so that is the thing that regardless of how difficult the circumstances are, how absurd and cruel the circumstances may be, because there is a lot of absurdity within prison. There is still so much humanity that happens. You know, that is the thing. That is the self care.

There is more evidence of humanity inside than I have witnessed on the outside.

What would you tell an attorney that doesn't look at themselves as a storyteller or that creativity is even a powerful tool that they could use to bring something like this to life for their client and to be a better advocate for them?

I would say listen to your client and ask questions and don't be afraid to say I'm not quite getting it. Explain it to me a little bit more and just honestly listening and finding what matters, what really matters and focusing on that.

I would love to remind your attorneys that human beings, storytelling is inherent in the human experience. We are all storytellers and we are all creative beings. We are all problem solvers. Creativity is about problem solving. And so I would argue that it is a confidence issue.

(: 01:07:01

So be confident in your abilities to tell stories and be creative. It's all there. It's all there. You're a human being. You can be creative and you are definitely a storyteller.

I think really get to know your client. I think once you find the human in him, once you find the connection between them two, you two, then you want to fight for them. You really do. You want to advocate for them. You want them to do better, be better. Listen to them. You know, really listen to them. I just really quickly, just wanted to, I think it's really sad that

We have to pay people to listen to us. You know, I have to pay somebody to be my friend enough to go advocate for me because I can't. You know what I'm saying? You know, put that aside. Stop, don't be my lawyer. You know, don't be my lawyer for that moment in time because I need you to be my lawyer in court, not here when you and I are getting to know each other. You know, make me feel important without having to pay you first.

And I will tell you this, the, the, lawyers that we have seen that are the most successful, take that approach with every single person they work with. And we've been really lucky to have some clients that are just, every time we talk, every time we meet one of their people, one of the people they're representing, we're just like, I see why you fell in love with, with this person and why you're so passionate about advocating for them. And I think it's so important if you don't have that.

I don't know how you do it. I don't know how you do it. Well, I don't know how you do it with the way you need to do it. You got to find something that just that you love about that person. I can't. I don't think you could say it a better way. Arturo. Thank you so much for for that. And actually, Cecilia and my belt. That was, that was wonderful. Thank you.

(: 01:08:54

think also it's thinking of the justice system as a social service. I mean, once someone is incarcerated, they should be given the means to do better when they get home. The whole process should be about preparing people to go home, not punishing, preparing people to do better. And so I think if we saw this all, mass incarceration, mass supervision, all of the complications there, if we saw it more as a social service, actually trying to help the person instead of feeling like it's

punishment, because we all make mistakes, you know, we all mess up. But we all have strengths and we all have things to offer. And so I reminding each person that they're human being and that they're valued is essential.

I want to real quick just go to y'all, where can we find you? Where can we learn more about Playwrights Project and what you're doing if there's anything that you all want to plug?

well, we are on the web. Our website is playwrightsproject.org and we're on Instagram and Facebook and all of the social media as well.

If you're looking to donate money, you're looking for those tax write-offs. There's not a better place. There's not a better group to throw a little money at than Playwrights Project. Once again, playwrightsproject.org. Don't be afraid to go and check them out. And if you're so compelled, a donation, a donation to help these really great programs, especially when funding and a lot of the funding that you all get.

(: 01:10:26

is up in the air right now. We don't know what's gonna happen. It's gonna, you know, these are important programs. So I will advocate for you today. I will be your advocate and say, please, please consider sending, sending some sending some donations, playwright project playwrights projects way.

We do have public performances that happen twice a year or three times a year. So definitely checking our website and joining our newsletter. You can get more information if you're interested in seeing. We do an annual production at San Diego State of Beyond Prison Walls, which are plays written inside of Donovan and Santanella and performed by the students, which is another wonderful opportunity for students to learn about lives they may not know anything about. Olivia took part as a director this year for us. Thank you. And she helped initiate that program when she was

as a SDSU alumni, so thank you for that. And then we do an annual festival of plays by young writers, which is open to any youth under the age of 19 who can submit a script, get feedback, positive feedback on their writing, and the winners of the contest see their plays fully produced by professionals in a theater here in San Diego. So those are definitely opportunities to come visit and see the program in action.

Thank you all so much for being here and sharing so much. We really appreciate your time and all of the takeaways that you have for our audience. We could not be more grateful to you all. Thank you for being here.

you

(: 01:11:54

Please like and subscribe to CrossLab wherever you get your podcasts or webcasts. If you really liked this podcast, please write a review. If you didn't, this podcast has been Paul Hollywood's Baker's Podcast. Thank you for listening to CrossLab, a trial house consulting production powered by LawPods. To get free resources for your next trial, go to houseimprov.com, H-A-U-S improv.com. This program is written and produced by

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