Episode 6

full
Published on:

1st May 2025

The “It’s All About Me" Witness

Hosts Steve Hohman and Olivia Espinosa are joined by personal injury and family law attorney Shane Henry, as well as noted TV, film and theater actor, producer and director Jean Bruce Scott.

Watch as Shane cross-examines Jean, who plays this episode’s mock witness—a devoted grandma testifying on behalf of her son who’s seeking primary custody of his 2 children. 

Shane challenges Jean’s claims in this masterclass of constructive cross-examination.

What’s covered in this episode: 

  • The funnel that traps the witness and triggers the jury’s ‘aha!’ moment
  • What Bryan Cranston and Tom Hanks share—and why it’s essential for trial lawyers
  • How a fact-focused cross can open doors you didn’t expect
  • The low-key cue that signals you’ve got the opposing witness under your control
  • A simple way to collect testimony gold—ready for closing, ASAP

Time Stamps

00:00 What’s Cross Lab?

2:55 The real power of constructive cross—for your witness, judge, and jury

10:15 Structuring your questions to box in the witness and create an ‘aha!’ moment for the jury

17:45 The “secret” to performing that hooks your audience and keeps you credible

21:25 What successful big-money verdict attorneys have in common

29:30 Mock Case Overview: Stills vs. Stills

34:34 Shane’s Cross: Building a clear picture—one fact at a time

57:14 A subtle cue that proves you're steering the witness

59:56 How to collect key testimony—so your closing organizes itself

1:09:17 Tips for managing performance anxiety

1:13:41 Top takeaways if you had to cross a witness like this


To get free resources for your next trial go to HausImprov.com

Transcript
Speaker:

Ma'am, I'd like to take you back to about a year ago, to May 14th of 24.

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Do you remember that?

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Garrett, he had an incident at...

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He's appendix-verse.

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his appendix burst and the school called Jonathan, correct?

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The school called Rebecca five times.

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They got no answer.

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We're not just actors.

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We've been cross-examined over 1,500 times in cross simulations to help train and coach

some of the world's top trial attorneys.

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Through live witness sparring, we'll test constructive cross techniques, share fresh

insights, and explore new strategies.

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And even though the testimony may be fake, the trial skills?

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Totally real.

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So let's experiment, discover what works, and have some fun in CrossLab.

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This show is brought to you by Trial House Consulting and powered by LawPods.

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Welcome to CrossLab.

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I'm Steve Homan.

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and I'm Olivia Espinosa.

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First things first, we're not lawyers and this isn't a show about legal theory or case

law.

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We are career actors and directors, and our focus is on storytelling, specifically how a

trial lawyer makes the jury and witness feel in what's known as a constructive cross.

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We like to call it the yes and cross.

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It's a strategy of using the opposing witness to help build your case narrative one fact

at a time.

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And if you have watched or listened to CrossLab before, you know that we designed a test

case that sparks ideas, word choice, and questions that you can use for your next

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deposition or trial.

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And Steve and I also usually simulate the cross-examination witness.

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But for this episode, we're doing things a little bit differently.

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Instead, the mock witness sparring against our guest attorney today is a seasoned actor,

someone who may be familiar to some of our audience.

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So let's introduce them both and jump into the show.

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We have Shane Henry.

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He has offices in Tulsa and Oklahoma City where he practices in the areas of personal

injury and family law.

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He has authored multiple published articles and presented CLE courses on numerous topics

related to trial advocacy and family law.

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He enjoys helping people through difficult times in their lives.

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Hi, Shane.

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Thank you so much for joining us.

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Thank you, it's an honor to be here.

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And we also have Jean Bruce Scott.

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She is a noted actor, producer, director, and dramaturg working in the theater,

television, and film.

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Her next project is the title role in Driving Miss Daisy at Idaho Repertory Theater.

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Welcome, Jean.

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Thank you.

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Happy to be here.

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Well, Jean and Shane, it's really great to have you both here today.

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We want to start out with a little bit of a conversation.

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Yeah, before we get to our case of the day, we're gonna spend a little time talking about

what this podcast is based on, which is constructive cross or like Steve said before, a

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yes and cross.

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The main goal of this style of cross is to make the uh make facing the opposing witness

more conversational and less destructive by implementing the three rules that are its

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foundation.

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That first one being leading question only.

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So no open ended questions, kind of like a statement with an inflection at the end.

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One fact at a time, one fact per question.

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And then finally, the final three third rule of constructive cross is moving from a

general place of agreement to the specific

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goal of your cross.

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You have likely seen and heard the benefits of this style in these previous episodes of

Cross Lab.

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It's where you can make the opposing witness more cooperative, giving admissions that can

flip them into becoming a teaching tool for your case narrative.

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Additionally, it makes that information more easily absorbed by your fact-finders, your

judge, and your jury.

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Now, one of the reasons we're diving a little bit deeper into this style today is because

we're really fortunate to have Shane Henry with us, a litigator who's been using this

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approach for years and who also teaches and presents on these skills to other trial

lawyers.

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So Shane, we'd love to know because you are so familiar with constructive cross, what do

you see as the real power of this method?

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gaining admissions and ultimately as a trial lawyer, your goal is to have more success at

trial.

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And if you can be more persuasive, i.e.

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getting facts out that help your case, you can have better success at trial.

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so using this technique or this method, really, it opens up witnesses so that they can

provide information that you need to benefit your case.

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If you think about when you come at someone, if you're automatically attacking them, the

natural human reaction is to push back on that.

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But if somebody comes at you and they're kind and they just have facts that they're

bringing up and everything, you start to build a repertoire with that person and it's a

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lot easier to give that person facts.

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We know that works for sure because we call it the yes train when we're doing simulations.

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When we get into that agreeable state with one of the attorneys we're simulating with, we

have to have to remind ourselves, no, you got to fight back because it's so easy to get

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lulled into that conversational tone.

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And the way that the strategy is formulated, you're just going to get more admissions and

more agreement from

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from that witness.

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So Shane, you kind of touched on it a little bit actually that this particular method can

also translate what it seems to be outside of cross-examine and deposition into

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potentially the rest of trial.

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For sure, anytime interviewing the witness even, but anytime you're dealing with opposing

party, whether it be at motion hearings or depositions or anything else, using this method

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just sets that foundation so that you can lay the framework you need to in order to

achieve the goals of where you're headed.

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I use this example actually a lot because em I was in a children's entertainment group a

long time ago and our boss always used to ask us, hey, what do you guys want for lunch?

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And we'd always say hamburgers.

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And he said, that's great.

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I know a great Mexican spot around the corner.

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Let's go.

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And we'd go, OK.

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And it wasn't until years later that I realized, wait a second, we never ate hamburgers.

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Oh my god.

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But I was being, you know.

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He was constructive crossing me basically, A great, or, know, guess ending me.

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Like, yes, you have a good idea and let's do this instead.

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And it's the same thing that happens to us as witnesses.

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We don't realize, like Steve said, that we're kind of being moved into a direction that we

didn't realize uh would eventually box us in.

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I think Olivia, you touched on something earlier too.

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Today, our episodes focus on family law.

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So usually those are conducted bench trials.

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But as the judge is receiving and hearing the information, rather than hearing this big

fight between the attorney and the witness, the judge is able to process the information

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as it's coming in and everybody for the most part is in agreement.

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So it's...

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It makes the information a lot easier to receive for real-time learning, which is the goal

in the court.

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So, Gene, I do want to bring you into the conversation just a little bit, because I think

when we're talking about presenting factual information coming from a more conversational

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tone, and I'm thinking about the new work plays that you are working on, or actually even

thinking about, you know, approaching a scene that might have contentious uh moments in

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it, uh how you can get

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more out of that scene, you when you're, really focusing on not being at level 10 the

whole time, but looking for uh places where you can be more conversational and how that

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affects a performance or just storytelling in general.

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Well, it's two very different things actually, um in my opinion.

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In storytelling, um you're building the story, um dropping little breadcrumbs along the

way about what might come, what might happen, and then surprising them by not doing the

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thing that the audience expects.

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And so it's a little bit different.

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But yes, I can see how the yes and uh organizational

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skills would come into play for a playwright because as they're writing a lot of times

it's a conflict, drama is conflict and so they're always looking for that conflict not the

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yes and.

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So you can kind of flip that part on the head.

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And then story wise you always want to know the beginning, the middle, the end and where

you just come from.

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who you are walking into the scene.

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um It's such a combination of different things because often a playwright or screenwriter

doesn't give you all the information for your character.

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You have to build it as an actor.

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you're also writing it and coming up with, know, I can deliver this line and I am saying

it in a way that's, you know, uh isn't she special?

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you know, which may or may not mean that she's special.

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but she might think she's special and uh and if yeah it that could be that could be a fun

thing but you know what something that you said though gene is you're talking about like

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the bed bread crumbs and then something unexpected happens and i actually think we can

talk about constructive cross a lot like that too where you're and that's where that place

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where we come from

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getting general questions of agreement and then working our way towards the goal of the

cross examination, which is where all the contentious stuff goes.

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And that's where all the tough questions are.

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But hopefully by the time that the lawyer gets there, they will have uh got the witness to

agree to so much information that they're kind of stuck about where they want to go.

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And so you can get that like, ah, moment, that aha moment by just stringing

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factual little, you know, those breadcrumbs along the way.

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And then all of a sudden it creates this really vivid picture.

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any thoughts on kind of, you know, that general to specific uh way of painting a vivid

picture?

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It's really, if you think about a funnel, you're starting out wide and then you're working

down.

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And we'll see how today goes on the cross.

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But if things go as I have them planned, there are gonna be a couple aha moments.

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But again, we'll see how that plays out.

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I just want to make sure that Steve, that we define real quick, because we mentioned,

Jean, that you're a dramaturg.

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And it really is, for me, you are the eyes and the ears of the audience before the

audience ever sees the play, because you're bridging the gap between the writer's vision

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and what the audience needs to understand and connect to the story, the characters, the

relationship, the conflicts, everything that sort of goes into it.

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Anything else about the dramaturg that might, you know, that I'm missing?

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the big thing is um you're always questioning uh versus fixing or writing the playwrights

or the screenwriters text.

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you know, something comes up and you say, it's very much like a lawyer.

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so you've got Olivia coming in at midnight ah and she's got these two kids and she's left

them alone in the house.

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And the police have now come and where was she?

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You know, so, you know, of course the playwright at that moment is like, well, I don't

know yet.

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I haven't decided.

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And so you say, well, if anybody knows, it's gotta be you.

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So you gotta figure that out.

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And that's how you're gonna keep writing your script.

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You keep asking those questions.

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Yeah, I think it very much translates though in general to what we tell attorneys, is, you

know, especially in deposition or kind of just prepping in general, like staying curious,

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right?

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Yes.

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for those things that you might not have realized that were there and even in a cross,

right?

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Just if something jumps out at you that you didn't expect or didn't plan for, to stay

curious to kind of dig deeper because you might find something that is actually gold that

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you never even realized was there.

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I guess if I could jump in for a moment to build on something Gene was just talking about,

a trial is the same way, but during cross, that's our time to gather facts.

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So we're looking for admission and facts, but then when the witness is seated and no one

can argue with you, you get to do a closing argument.

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And that's when you start to explain, Hey, we heard these facts.

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Here's what was missing.

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Let me tell you what that means or why, or that's when you can tie it all together.

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Jean, what do you think is one of the hardest lessons for a writer and a storyteller to

learn?

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This is hard because I'm a producer as well as a dramaturg and so for me to ask a

playwright to consider their audience isn't exactly kosher for a dramaturg.

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So as a producer I do have to ask that question and say you know I've got this audience

coming in and you've got six swear words on every single page and you know we've

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build this just as a show show, an adult show.

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What do you want to do about that?

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And a lot of times it's hard.

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So I would say being able to listen and not be defensive when you get a question, because

it really, the question is coming from a very honest place of, I've got to build this

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theater and get your name out there and have people see this play.

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It's really good play, but I'm going to have people walking out of the audience before

page six.

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And they're going to go tell their friends, don't go see that.

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It's full of swear words or whatever the thing is.

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I'm not against swear words, believe me.

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A few Pepperdine script is fine.

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But I have had playwrights fight me on that issue, both as a dramaturg and later as a

producer.

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Shane, you know, just makes me think about that lawyers have to do the same exact thing.

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If you're not thinking about your jury or your judge or whoever is your fact finder in the

case, especially your judge, because you got to kind of get to know them.

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um If you're if you're trying cases in the same courtrooms over and over again.

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And if you're not trying to make sure that you're as accessible as possible to those

people, you know, I always like to think about it like if you if you have a jury.

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You want to be McDonald's, not the New Yorker.

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You want to use like the most accessible words that you can and not get too flourishly,

flourishy.

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Is that a word?

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I don't know.

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You don't want to get too fancy with your language or uh you want to try and like kind of

boil it down uh to the most accessible.

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But ah but I don't be a little bit different when you're when you're when you know your

judge and you kind of start to get to know what they like and how they like that

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information.

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Do you find that that's the case?

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Steve, you're exactly right.

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What you're doing, the job of a trial lawyer is kind of like what Gene's talking about,

because when clients come to you, their story, whatever the case is about, that has spread

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out over multiple years, right?

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And so you've got to take information and boil it down like you're talking about and

tailor it to...

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that judge, you've got to define what are my goals here and then what facts do I need to

show in order to achieve those goals.

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And it's really that process, like a filmmaker, cutting down hours and hours of film to

when it comes out in the theater, it's a two hour movie.

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you know, when I think about that, it's like the editing part of that too, because that's

there's the way that you sequence your facts, and even the way that you sequence your

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witnesses, and you build your case.

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I mean, that's, that's a skill in itself that is is hard to master and, but that's so key,

and making sure that you're eliciting the kind of response that that you want to have.

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You have to consider that ahead of time.

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How is this judge going to perceive this information?

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What conclusions is the judge going to draw from these facts?

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And so all that goes into planning things out.

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I wanted to move to sort of the other aspect of storytelling, which is presenting and

performing.

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Jean, when it comes to that, what do you think?

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there anything that...

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Here's the thing.

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Attorneys always ask us, not only do they want to build credibility, but they want to keep

people engaged, right?

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Not all eyes on them, sure, but they want to really have a deep connection with their

audience, with their judge and jury.

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What do you think?

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Is there a secret to getting people hooked and engaged if you are presenting?

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yes i'd i think it's sincerity i think it's bringing your self onto the job that you're

doing as a trial lawyer or even as an actor however that is but finding the truth sets

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when a lawyer's there to do and as a character that's you're looking for the truth in the

story what happened what how can i help how did i contribute or whatever those those kinds

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of things are

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I think actors that we really love, like Tom Hanks.

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He's got sincerity covered left, right and center.

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um Bryan Cranston.

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Bryan has a little twist on things, but he's sincere.

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He's genuine about the thing that he's doing, whatever it is.

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standing out in the desert in his underwear with pair of boots on, know, whatever it is

he's doing.

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um That's who he is.

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It's his, that's his character's self.

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So I think that's what, for myself, if I were a judge, I want Shane to walk in and be

Shane, right?

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I don't want him to put on some kind of character lawyer that he is, you know?

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He looks trustworthy, you know, he comes in and he's got a nice voice and I like listening

to him and you know the more that he plays on those things the more I want to listen to

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him and hear what he has to say.

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I'm so glad that you said that.

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think that uh we get this a lot too.

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A lot of people think actors are just liars and it's really the same thing that people

think trial lawyers are.

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so vice versa, know, we've had that people think that about us.

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And I think really as an actor, you have to be truthful and honest and find the truth in

every character that you play, even when they're a villain.

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Otherwise, my credibility is gone.

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You're gonna see right through me, right?

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And it's the same thing.

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with a trial attorney to find that truth and that honesty.

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There is no gimmicks.

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It's really just being who you are.

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And even those times where things didn't go as planned, some of the most sincere moments,

even as an actor, something goes wrong and you acknowledge it, that's a huge thing to

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establish credibility.

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And as an attorney too, I know everybody wants things to be perfect, but sometimes shit

goes wrong and just saying, I'm sorry.

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Let me ask that question a different way.

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you know, hold on one moment, let me reset.

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It's endearing, but it also kind of shows us that you're human and that it's something

that, you know, that you're trustworthy.

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weapon.

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You know, it's what you have and nobody else does.

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And it's really wonderful when you're able to be present in the moment and, you know,

bring those things to light.

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I heard this quote one time and it said, are inspired by perfection, but we connect with

vulnerability and as humans, you know, that when can someone be vulnerable and how do we

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receive that?

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I was just going to say that word vulnerability.

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It's something that me and Olivia talking to some of our clients, we've been, you know,

kind of bringing that up uh as a key that we see.

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Actually, it's a trait that we see in a lot of like those big money uh attorneys that are

getting those really, really big verdicts.

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And we've seen their openings, we've seen how they operate and they're doing a couple

things.

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The first thing they're

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infinitely curious.

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So it goes back to what we were saying before, but you can see that vulnerability in them.

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They're not afraid.

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It's not even to a moat, but just, you know, just show themselves.

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And that's not an easy thing to do when you know, for lawyers, and it sounds so like

counterintuitive to, you know, what you imagine a lawyer would want to be, you know,

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steely and, and, uh you know, that strong

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rock of a person in the courtroom.

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But really, if you can stay curious and and and find that those moments of vulnerability,

it just, you know, be really comfortable to be you.

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My God, that's that's that's the key.

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I never ever want to make anybody other than the best version of who they are.

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And I think that's really key.

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I want to get shade.

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Did you ever have like when you first started out as a baby lawyer and now you're, you

know, with with all the years of experience that you have?

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uh

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Was that a struggle for you to find that to find your authenticity in the courtroom?

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100%.

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I started, I had the good fortune to start out under this.

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He was an amazing trial lawyer and a great mentor.

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And I got to work with another one later on, but I spent years in my career trying to be

them.

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And finally an older lawyer pulled me aside and said, Hey, you're never going to be them

or what you're going to have to be the best Shane Henry you can be.

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And that was some of the best advice that I ever received, but it's hard because

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As humans, I'm very aware of my inadequacies, you know, and so you always want to try to

be something else or something you're not, and it doesn't work in the courtroom.

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I was reading recently a book about Abraham Lincoln and his last murder trial before he

came, became president.

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But they said something very interesting in there that that's on topic, but they were

saying people jurors loved Abraham Lincoln because.

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He wasn't all polished.

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He was disheveled.

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was, but he never talked down to people.

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He was always, you know, truthful.

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We hear the honest aid, but the way he connected with people.

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And it just reminded me of this vulnerability deal that we've been talking.

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I imagine it's got to be hard too, because there's so much that we all want to control,

and especially a trial lawyer is one of the things.

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We're doing some classes right now, and one attorney specifically says, I got to work on

my control issues.

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And understandably, because so much of the outcome of the trial basically is out of your

control.

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So wanting to control as much as you can within that scope.

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is obviously something that we would all want to do because you have to ultimately, it's

not up to you what happens.

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So I can't imagine the difficulty to be able to kind of be so vulnerable that you are

ultimately letting go of control of your case and your clients, the outcome of that.

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about hard.

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I've had my pants split open in the back during a trial.

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uh

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It was in front of a judge that didn't like me and I said, your honor, you can we take a

break?

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And the judge said, Mr.

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Henry, what do you need a break for?

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I said, judge, I've had a wardrobe malfunction.

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Oh my god

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uh I think you just created our next uh social media blurb for the episode.

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That is fantastic.

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I want to come back to Jude really quick.

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uh Before we move on.

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Do you have any takeaway that can help people connect and build trust with their audience

as a performer?

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In the theater, you feel it as soon as you walk on stage.

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And again, the best thing that I can do is to be as prepared as possible and to find the

truth and the character for myself and who I am.

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And then allow the time for the audience to come to me.

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If that makes sense.

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that you know if I walk into a stage and there's four other characters the audience is

already invested in those four other characters so do I do I you know come in you know all

295

:

sparkly and ready to take on the day do I come in sad do I throw myself on the couch and

know bemoan my existence whatever the playwright is giving me to do commit to that fully

296

:

and I think

297

:

I can trust the audience to come to that story.

298

:

I'm there in service of the story.

299

:

um Some actors are there as stars and actors and the story is a little bit secondary.

300

:

I think that the best actors are in service of the story.

301

:

And so that's too.

302

:

You are in service of your clients.

303

:

story.

304

:

Agreed.

305

:

And the more invested you are in your client and that story, the more interested your

audience, your jury, is going to be.

306

:

We talk about that a lot as far as not making it about yourself as far as you're like the

ah the ringmaster, right?

307

:

If you're thinking about like a circus, the ringmaster is there to show you what the show

is.

308

:

They're not doing all the fun stuff.

309

:

And I think about that as in the in the in a courtroom, the lawyer is that ringmaster.

310

:

But the the the excitement is the witnesses and the facts and how they come together.

311

:

And if you make it about that,

312

:

then you know, and are completely in service of that.

313

:

I think that's so true.

314

:

Like then it's it's not a matter of like, gaining credibility, you just will have it

because because your your focus is in the right place.

315

:

Like you're you're you're you're doing what you're supposed to be doing that the audience

wants you to do, I think, or your your jury or your judge, right?

316

:

Yeah, the other way we talk about that in terms of it's not about you and um is really

just leaving your opinion out of it.

317

:

um And part of that is, uh you know, one fact at a time means no conclusions because a

conclusion is an attorney's opinion, right?

318

:

And I need to insert my opinion and what I think as a fact finder.

319

:

So that's how we also talk about that idea that it's not about you.

320

:

Your job is to just lay the facts out there so that I can make the best decision possible.

321

:

Shane, bet with judges, especially with doing bench trials almost exclusively, judges

probably don't want to hear opinions at all.

322

:

They want to see some really good, hard facts, I'm sure.

323

:

There's one person in a courtroom that it matters what they think and it's not a lawyer.

324

:

It's the person wearing the black robe.

325

:

And as lawyers, I think it's hard for us to accept that because we want to share our

opinions, our thoughts, but that's not how we persuade in a courtroom.

326

:

It's all about the facts.

327

:

Fantastic.

328

:

Well, let's get into it a little bit because today's case is a family divorce case, a

family law divorce case, as we mentioned.

329

:

And as Shane mentioned, this is his primary area of focus in his practice.

330

:

So this is the case of Stills versus Stills.

331

:

In this custody dispute between Rebecca Stills, CEO of a national jewelry brand, and

Jonathan Stills, a frequently traveling venture capitalist, the central issue is whether

332

:

Rebecca should retain primary custody of their two children.

333

:

Jonathan currently has weekend visitation and relies on his mother, Sandra Stills, a

retired school teacher, as the children's primary caregiver during his parenting time.

334

:

In her direct testimony, Sandra claimed that Rebecca is too career-focused and often

delegates parenting responsibilities to a college-aged nanny.

335

:

She argues that as a retired grandparent, she's better positioned to provide daily care

and structure, particularly for her grandson, Garrett, who has ADHD.

336

:

Sandra also referenced a recent medical incident in which Garrett's appendix burst at

school

337

:

Rob Rebecca was unreachable during a business meeting.

338

:

Shane is representing Rebecca in this case and will be conducting a cross examination of

Sandra Stills played by Jean to challenge her credibility and the conclusions drawn from

339

:

her direct testimony.

340

:

But before we do that, uh dive into that cross examination to our simulated cross cross

examination, we want to take just a really quick little break.

341

:

And we want to talk about really quickly our partners at Law Pods.

342

:

Lawyers think that Law Pods are just the company that produces the TLU and Trial Lawyer

Nations podcasts, but actually they create a lot of podcasts with lawyers just like you to

343

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help reach non-lawyers, aka your potential clients.

344

:

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345

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And Robert Ingalls and his team make podcasting easy.

346

:

With over a hundred million people expected to listen to podcasts this year, there's never

been a better time to get this as a tool for getting your practice out there to the

347

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public.

348

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And to get more info, visit LawPods, L-A-W-P-O-D-S dot com.

349

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Tell them we sent you.

350

:

We want to tell you about what we do at Trial House.

351

:

We help attorneys in private sessions and in coaching to help you be a better advocate for

your client.

352

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We can help you in so many different ways from learning new trial skills or

cross-examination skills to your opening statements and even working with your clients to

353

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be great advocates for themselves in depositions or in cross-examinations and trial.

354

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The best way to reach out to us is to go to our website, trialhouse.com.

355

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That's H-A-U-S, trialhouse.com.

356

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And we've got two free resources for attorneys on there.

357

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One to help you craft a compelling narrative for your jury and another to help you get

storytelling gold from your witnesses that's gonna help you put a wonderful case together.

358

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And you can schedule a 30 minute

359

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storytelling consultation with us.

360

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361

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362

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We want to talk with you and learn more about your practice and a case that's coming up.

363

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You might actually get some really good advice at the very, very least.

364

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ah Once again, trialhouse.com, H-A-U-S.

365

:

We hope to talk to you soon.

366

:

you

367

:

Welcome back to CrossLab.

368

:

uh We're about to start into our simulated cross-examination.

369

:

Shane, in terms of a witness like this, not to give anything away too much really, but

what's your approach typically for a witness like this?

370

:

Constructive cross, we wanna take the facts that they're willing to work with us on and

then ideally kind of lead them down a path that they're stuck and maybe get a few of those

371

:

like Steve was talking about earlier, some of those aha questions.

372

:

They're not conclusions, just facts.

373

:

So we'll see how that works out today.

374

:

What I do not wanna do is get in a fight with the mother-in-law.

375

:

that it's not gonna help anybody.

376

:

Okay, uh Shane, you're gonna have about 10 minutes to cross the witness, but you know, it

could get juicier than that, so we won't stop you exactly then.

377

:

But in the interest of time, you can confirm any admissions potentially that you think

you've already covered with the witness before you get to your particular chapters that

378

:

you have.

379

:

Is there anything that you confirm ahead of time?

380

:

I think we can roll.

381

:

Okay, ooh, I can't wait to roll.

382

:

Okay, Shane, the witness is yours whenever you're ready.

383

:

Miss Stills, Jonathan is your son, correct?

384

:

Yes.

385

:

46 years old.

386

:

He's currently going through a divorce from Rebecca.

387

:

They have two children.

388

:

Yes, Garrett and Brittany.

389

:

your grandchildren.

390

:

Yes!

391

:

Garrett's nine.

392

:

Here it's mine.

393

:

and Britney's seven.

394

:

Yes, second grade.

395

:

Ma'am, I noticed your face light up.

396

:

You love your family.

397

:

I do love my family.

398

:

You love Jonathan?

399

:

Well, yes, of course.

400

:

And of course you love Garrett.

401

:

Garrett?

402

:

Yes.

403

:

Yes.

404

:

and you love Brittany, they can count on you.

405

:

They can count on me and they gave me so much joy and for me to be able to be there to

support them and to watch Garrett and Brittany grow up and succeed and for Jonathan to be

406

:

so successful now as uh a young adult, it's really exciting.

407

:

It's very exciting for a mom.

408

:

Family comes first.

409

:

For me, yes.

410

:

They can count on you outside of the courtroom.

411

:

They can count on you inside of the courtroom.

412

:

Yes?

413

:

Ma'am, Jonathan, you mentioned him being a successful adult.

414

:

He's employed, isn't he?

415

:

yes, yes, he's a venture capitan.

416

:

adventuring capitalists, that's important work.

417

:

It's very important work and he's good at

418

:

He's good at it and it's not easy.

419

:

No, it's not easy.

420

:

not just anybody can do a be a venture capitalist, a successful venture capital.

421

:

No, no.

422

:

His work is demanding.

423

:

It's very demanding.

424

:

You're aware of his schedule.

425

:

I am.

426

:

Sometimes he works in town.

427

:

yes, of course.

428

:

And sometimes he works out of town.

429

:

Yes.

430

:

sometimes 20 or more days per month.

431

:

Well, that's a bit of an exaggeration, I think.

432

:

But yeah, he's on the road quite a bit.

433

:

He does try to make his round trip in the same day.

434

:

So flying out, doing his meetings, and flying back again.

435

:

So he works very hard to be home and to be with the kids and with me and to make a family.

436

:

And also because he's the way that he's so good at his job.

437

:

is that he does take leisure time and he enjoys going for walks with the dog and going to

the park and doing karate with Garrett, which is so good for Garrett and his energy.

438

:

Ma'am, he's so good at his job.

439

:

Earlier, you testified on direct testimony.

440

:

You remember that?

441

:

And you were truthful then.

442

:

And you would agree with me, 20 or more days a month, he's on the road on average.

443

:

Well, I guess it could be 20 or more days.

444

:

Yeah.

445

:

Over 60 % of the time he's on the road.

446

:

um When he's on the road, he FaceTimes with us.

447

:

oh Every single night he reads to the kids over Zoom.

448

:

We have a wonderful Zoom connection and that.

449

:

So the kids see him the whole time or anytime he's not here.

450

:

And then, as I said, he worked very hard to get back home.

451

:

So, yeah.

452

:

And sometimes he has to be gone even more than that, doesn't he?

453

:

Not often, sometimes.

454

:

Sometimes.

455

:

Ma'am, your husband passed away.

456

:

Yes you did.

457

:

Five bars.

458

:

five years ago and you have a home you live in.

459

:

I do.

460

:

uh We moved down uh before Garrett was born.

461

:

We came down from Humboldt.

462

:

And we were helpful with Rebecca.

463

:

Rebecca is also uh a wonderful young uh entrepreneur.

464

:

And she works very long hours.

465

:

So it was really nice for my husband and I to be able to be with the kids.

466

:

uh

467

:

take care of them and babysit them.

468

:

And when my husband died, Jonathan was kind enough to build a guest house in the back of

his property.

469

:

He has a nice big lawn, big property, and that's where I've been living uh ever since.

470

:

You live in that guest house that's behind Jonathan's house, correct?

471

:

Yeah, so that's I have my own home in my own space.

472

:

So when I'm watching the children and spending time with them, I have a bedroom in the

house on the same floor as the children.

473

:

So I'm there 24 seven.

474

:

So when Jonathan, when the kids are in his custody, you stay in the main house, correct?

475

:

I stay in the main house only if I'm needed.

476

:

If Jonathan is on a trip, well then obviously I'm the one that's there.

477

:

But when Jonathan's there, I don't necessarily stay in that guest bedroom.

478

:

If one of the kids is sick, I do so that I can help in the night if they're coughing or

need a vaporizer or whatever, I want to be there to be able to take care of them.

479

:

I try to be a good granny and be there as needed and uh I try to get out of the way so

that they can have their own time together.

480

:

Jonathan cares for him when he can.

481

:

Jonathan cares for them a lot.

482

:

So Jonathan, when he's in town, gets up first thing, he's the one who makes the breakfast.

483

:

If I want pancakes, I gotta go into his house and make sure that I get some of those

pancakes.

484

:

Yeah, he's there.

485

:

And when he's not there, you're there.

486

:

And when he's not there, I'm there.

487

:

And that's not something you dislike.

488

:

Uh, no, I loved raising my children and, um, I, I didn't anticipate helping to raise my

grandchildren.

489

:

um I wish.

490

:

like it correct

491

:

I do like it.

492

:

I, yeah.

493

:

do it more.

494

:

I would do it more, absolutely.

495

:

I would be happy to do it more.

496

:

According to your direct testimony, you want to do it more, correct?

497

:

Yes, I would like to do it more.

498

:

And currently when Rebecca has the children, you don't watch them, correct?

499

:

not now, not in last five months, but when they were separating and before that, yes, I

watched them a lot.

500

:

You want Jonathan to have more time, correct?

501

:

I want Jonathan to have more time with the children and I want the children to be looked

after.

502

:

I don't feel as though Rebecca and or the college babysitter that they have, she has, take

good enough care of the kids.

503

:

And ma'am, when Rebecca has the kids, we already covered, you're not present, are you?

504

:

No.

505

:

No, I answered that.

506

:

Yeah.

507

:

HD?

508

:

Uh-huh.

509

:

And Garrett and Brittany, they're both in school.

510

:

They're in the same school together.

511

:

And it's important that they be in the same school together.

512

:

Wouldn't you agree?

513

:

Why would they have to be in different schools?

514

:

I'm sorry, I can't agree or disagree.

515

:

I think it's great that they're both in the same school.

516

:

And ma'am, you are well informed about their school, correct?

517

:

Yes, yeah, I was a school teacher for 32 years at St.

518

:

as part of being well informed about the school.

519

:

mean, actually on direct, you expressed an opinion about a different school, didn't you?

520

:

Yes, yes, there's a Catholic school that's less than five minutes from Jonathan's.

521

:

from Jonathan's house, ma'am, in coming to express that opinion, you, you looked into

their current school.

522

:

Can we agree?

523

:

And so, you know, that school is rated.

524

:

Yes.

525

:

You know it's top rated.

526

:

Yes.

527

:

and you know they have a special program.

528

:

I do.

529

:

know they have a special program.

530

:

a special program for ADHD.

531

:

And you know that the teachers in that program, they're specially trained.

532

:

Yes.

533

:

You're aware of that, correct?

534

:

ah Well, yeah, they're specially trained.

535

:

um Garrett is not in a special ed class.

536

:

You know that Garrett participates in that special program for ADHD at his school,

correct?

537

:

He participates, but he's not in it full time.

538

:

Ma'am, on your direct testimony, you gave the judge all the important information you had

to give, correct?

539

:

in the amount of time that I had, yes.

540

:

You didn't leave anything out.

541

:

I did leave.

542

:

I mean, no, I didn't leave anything out.

543

:

and you didn't express any concerns about the school that the children are currently in.

544

:

Isn't that true?

545

:

I recommended that they go to the Catholic school down the street from Jonathan's house

over the public school.

546

:

em I understand your recommendation.

547

:

Thank you.

548

:

But my question was you didn't express any concerns about their current school.

549

:

Can we agree on that?

550

:

Well, I'll have to think about that because I...

551

:

Well, I don't have concerns.

552

:

I do think that the children would be better served in St.

553

:

Paul's, the Catholic church down the street from us right now.

554

:

Ma'am, I'd like to take you back to about a year ago, to May 14th of 24.

555

:

Do you remember that?

556

:

Yes, of course I do.

557

:

And Garrett, he had an incident at school.

558

:

His appendix burst.

559

:

his appendix burst and the school called Jonathan.

560

:

Correct?

561

:

The school called Rebecca five times.

562

:

They got no answer.

563

:

And when they didn't get an answer, they called Jonathan's.

564

:

I answered.

565

:

They told me what happened.

566

:

I went right out the door while I was driving.

567

:

called Jonathan and said, Garrett, at that point, we didn't know it was appendicitis and

that it had burst.

568

:

But I said, I'm going to pick up Garrett.

569

:

He needs to go to the hospital.

570

:

Ma'am, the school, when they called Jonathan, Jonathan couldn't come right then, could he?

571

:

I, Jonathan was out of town.

572

:

didn't call Jonathan.

573

:

called the house.

574

:

Yes.

575

:

Yes.

576

:

in the school they also called Rebecca and she couldn't come right then either could she?

577

:

No, no, no.

578

:

Thank goodness you were there.

579

:

I would say so, yes.

580

:

You took Garrett to the emergency room immediately.

581

:

And within 90 minutes of him, Garrett being admitted, Rebecca was there, correct?

582

:

Yes, but we were there.

583

:

We're so hold on a second.

584

:

We were there for a bit.

585

:

You walk into emergency, you don't go straight in even even though the child was vomiting

and and and crying and in extreme pain, obviously.

586

:

So it was more than 90 minutes total.

587

:

But yes, 90 minutes after he was admitted through the emergency ward.

588

:

Rebecca showed up.

589

:

And Jonathan, came too, didn't

590

:

Jonathan got there that evening.

591

:

He was there in time when when Garrett was coming out of surgery.

592

:

And man, according to your testimony, this shows something about Rebecca, doesn't it?

593

:

It shows that she's unreliable.

594

:

I can't imagine getting five calls from my son's elementary school and not picking up.

595

:

That's not normal.

596

:

This incident, proves she's unreliable, correct?

597

:

That's what you testified earlier.

598

:

Yes, thank you.

599

:

And it doesn't show anything about Jonathan's reliability, it?

600

:

This incident?

601

:

No, it does show about his reliability.

602

:

You know what his reliability is?

603

:

Me.

604

:

He knows I'm there 24-7.

605

:

So yes, he was out of town on a job.

606

:

The minute I called him, he was on his way to the airport and on an airplane.

607

:

Thank you for your time today, Ms.

608

:

Stills.

609

:

You're done with me.

610

:

I'm fast a witness, Steve is a

611

:

I don't know how to turn my camera back on.

612

:

Why is this not

613

:

You uh

614

:

I wanted to talk about Garrett.

615

:

Am I allowed to stare on this broadcast?

616

:

Yes, you can.

617

:

All you want.

618

:

All you want.

619

:

That son of a bitch didn't let me talk about carrots!

620

:

You guys make too much away!

621

:

was wonderful.

622

:

We're going to start with you, Shane.

623

:

How did that feel to you?

624

:

It felt good.

625

:

mean, she did a good job, you know, pushing back on some stuff and, but yeah, I think we

were able to kind of get the points in hopefully that we were trying to get, you know,

626

:

that would give me enough to, that would give us enough to make a good argument in

closing, you know, saying we've got a grandma who loves these kids and, you know, she sees

627

:

things out of her perspective, but.

628

:

you know, she did acknowledge and then I loved I wrote down she gave me Rebecca is a

wonderful entrepreneur.

629

:

was digging for that one.

630

:

was going to that in closing too.

631

:

Absolutely.

632

:

love the way that you started just in general, breaking down the family tree a little bit.

633

:

um even the question, ma'am, your face lights up when you talk about your family.

634

:

You love your family.

635

:

And even whatever, as a jury, if we don't see that, her face lighting up, she's never

going to say no.

636

:

So it's just a great kind of thing and an image that you're painting for us of this

loving.

637

:

grandmother, obviously she's going to present that too, but it just is an extra kind of

layer that you can add it in there.

638

:

I would say the way that you basically equated reliability, equated uh mom versus dad, I

was like, oh shit, actually, it's really unfair what people are asking of the mother

639

:

versus what they're asking of a dad to do.

640

:

When he is out of town 20 or more days and then you broke that down to 20 days equals 60%.

641

:

uh Jonathan was completely out of town when this uh event happened with Garrett.

642

:

um And then 90 minutes, her being there versus ours later, it just started to really paint

the picture in my head of what a double standard is for these two parents um as a fact

643

:

finder.

644

:

So I thought that that was really, really effective.

645

:

I love Jane when you when you responded, I am the reliability that was so that was so

fantastic.

646

:

I did a little a little little little arm shake there because I was enjoying that a little

fist bump.

647

:

But Shane when when she gave you that, what do you what do do with that?

648

:

Like what do you how does that either paint the picture for you or as far as your goal in

that cross like something when you get something like that from

649

:

from the grandmother.

650

:

So I was trying to decide there.

651

:

You have to make these split decision uh decisions during trial.

652

:

You can take something like that and then blow it up or what I made the decision.

653

:

Cause I think if I had grabbed onto that and start putting that back to her, think Jean

was going to talk her way out of it.

654

:

So I thought I've got that.

655

:

And now in closing, I would argue your honor, you know, she is a very reliable, but she's

the grandmother.

656

:

And what we've got, this is a case between two parents and their children and everything.

657

:

And so that's how I was planning to use it.

658

:

I was scared, Jean, if I'd gone back with you, yes, you're the reliable one.

659

:

I think you would have started backpedaling, recognizing where I was going.

660

:

No, I don't think I would have.

661

:

I would love to hear, Jean, how you felt.

662

:

How were you feeling on the inside when you were being crossed?

663

:

Well, I think that if there's three loving people raising two beautiful children and two

of them are more concerned or concerned about their careers and keeping a roof over

664

:

everybody's heads and all those kinds of things, then that's why I say I'm the reliable

one.

665

:

Good.

666

:

goodness they have a grandmother that's there and happy and available and was a teacher.

667

:

know, I had all kinds of good stuff about behavioral therapists and you know, we don't

need a classroom with six other quote unquote special needs children.

668

:

Garrett needs full time attention.

669

:

ADHD.

670

:

It can be calmed down.

671

:

You know, I didn't even get to talk about the dog that Jonathan got for Derek.

672

:

This beautiful woven retriever.

673

:

Well, I love that you're talking about this, Gene, because this happens actually to the

witnesses that we prep.

674

:

We do a lot of witness prep.

675

:

And really, they just want their story to be told because the scope of their story is this

big, but the questions are this big, one little step at a time.

676

:

And so it happens a lot because you want to be able to say everything and tell them the

reasons why.

677

:

Shane, what was going through your head when the witness was kind of, you know...

678

:

explaining and kind of going off in that respect.

679

:

So there are several different ways you can control that, you know, with the witness.

680

:

What I did here was just kind of let it go.

681

:

And I don't know you noticed, I was listening for a word or two, she would say, and then I

would use that just to loop back to get on track of where I was going.

682

:

I would say to lawyers out there, it's very frustrating when that happens, but you know,

that stuff happens.

683

:

And so rather than acknowledging it and trying to jump on it, let them get you off your

684

:

your plan, it's best just to kind of hammer back on and go to.

685

:

Speaking of loops, really loved, uh you looped on the road that became a theme for a

while.

686

:

And that was just like, and I think Gene gave you that he's on the road and you looped

that.

687

:

it was like the perfect admission for that whole chapter that you were getting at with

Jonathan and his busy schedule and painting that picture.

688

:

That was such a great loop.

689

:

That was really well done.

690

:

It was really frustrating because on the road, mean, when I was producing, I was on the

road when we did our taxes 150 nights out of the year.

691

:

And so, but I still managed to get back home and I took care of my mother and, you know, I

had, I had someone here to help me with my mom and I, I have animals and I took care of

692

:

them and I was able to do it all.

693

:

And so in my mind,

694

:

Jonathan is was not an absentee parent.

695

:

He was on the road.

696

:

He was working but Yeah, he got back as quick as he could

697

:

Yeah.

698

:

I, the other loop too, because of what you would put out, Jean, was that he's good at his

job and just in, in looping that.

699

:

And I will say that as a listener too, that is like, you're, you're again, his job is high

on the totem pole.

700

:

We're talking about his job quite a bit, right?

701

:

Versus him being there for his family.

702

:

And I will say, Jean, I don't know if you noticed, but as a listener and as you know,

working with trial attorneys, you actually started looping, uh, Shane because

703

:

Shane said, and that means that you're in control and you didn't even realize it.

704

:

Shane said, he's not there.

705

:

You're there.

706

:

And you said, yeah, he's not here.

707

:

I'm here.

708

:

And there was, that was only one.

709

:

I, there was another one I didn't even write down, but that just shows sort of the way

he's also kind of steering you.

710

:

And because it's keeping conversational, it's also kind of boosting you up as a witness.

711

:

You want to be heard.

712

:

You're a good grandma.

713

:

You don't even realize that that's actually some of the things that are happening here.

714

:

Yeah.

715

:

I gave him ammunition for his clothes ah unwittingly.

716

:

Jane, how did it feel like just separating yourself from the character and from this

really well self-actualized uh three-dimensional character that you created?

717

:

Getting away from that and just thinking about that process, what was that emotionally

like?

718

:

uh Was it uh more, was it smoother than you thought it would be?

719

:

did you feel squeezed at any moment?

720

:

I did.

721

:

I was fully invested in Sandra and I knew what Shane was trying to do.

722

:

I'm granny age and I have a very, very, very dear friend who did not want to be put in the

position of raising her granddaughters, two of them.

723

:

ended up going to court and fighting and getting guardianship of two granddaughters.

724

:

And that was a five or six year process.

725

:

It was hard.

726

:

She didn't want to say bad things about her daughter or her son-in-law, but the children

were not being well cared for.

727

:

And so I was looking at it from the standpoint of, you know,

728

:

I could be a good caretaker.

729

:

could be a good grandmother.

730

:

could do this.

731

:

even at my age, I have a lot of energy and I want to do it.

732

:

And so when he was pushing, but Rebecca's not there, but Jonathan's not there, it's like,

I'm here.

733

:

So yes, I did.

734

:

I pretty emotional about it.

735

:

Shane, when she throws out or when any witness kind of throws out what we were talking

about earlier, I'm the reliable one.

736

:

Did you make a quick note or what's your process to remember if you're not gonna use it

then but that you're gonna use it potentially in closing?

737

:

Okay, so that is a great question.

738

:

I would say to all lawyers out there, prepare your, we call them chapters, but however

you're gonna do your cross, get those prepared, but then keep by you some note cards.

739

:

I always keep these on trial table.

740

:

And anytime you get some good nuggets like that, just jot it down.

741

:

Because now for your closing argument, you have a stack of note cards, and you can kind of

sequence them through and you can say, Judge,

742

:

We heard this and we heard that and she admitted this and he admitted that and you can

really tie it all together that way.

743

:

And by having them like that, you can get organized quickly.

744

:

Because a trial will finish and they'll be like, okay, give your clothes counsel.

745

:

And a judge doesn't want to wait to let you get organized or whatever.

746

:

Thank you for that.

747

:

That's really great.

748

:

And especially when it's like, you always want to prepare as much as you can, but when you

have those, like you said, those nuggets already and it allows you to flip through and

749

:

organize them in a way that you feel comfortable and confident, that's really helpful.

750

:

Thank you.

751

:

I did want to ask you really quick, Shane, you face, and I think she was a very

sympathetic witness, obviously, like very, very sympathetic.

752

:

And you could not, that would be a, uh I just think like stepping on a landmine if you

were really strong arming are too much.

753

:

Do you face this kind of witness often in the cases that you are working on?

754

:

Sure.

755

:

At most witnesses, the judge doesn't want to see a lawyer come in and bully someone.

756

:

Think about that story.

757

:

If we're all driving by a kid's playground, over in the corner you see a big kid pushing

on a little kid at recess.

758

:

Who do you want to help?

759

:

Everyone feels the same way except for sociopaths and that's a whole different podcast.

760

:

But so you don't want to create that environment as the lawyer where the judge feels like

I need to jump in and help Jane, know, or Jean.

761

:

um

762

:

So I think that's another reason this constructive cross is the way to go.

763

:

And you've taught this style a lot.

764

:

So what do you think is the biggest challenges for attorneys who are doing and learning

constructive cross?

765

:

getting over the deal, we all think because we've seen the movies that Gene has so

artfully crafted and made, but we all think our job as lawyers is to go in attack, attack,

766

:

attack.

767

:

And that's actually not the way to be effective and persuasive in the courtrooms we have

now.

768

:

I think a long time ago, people went to court for the show to see the lawyer perform and

to see all that.

769

:

Let's fast forward to today.

770

:

Judges have

771

:

too many cases on their dockets.

772

:

They don't want to hear the nonsense.

773

:

Same for jurors.

774

:

Everybody's busy.

775

:

They want to get in and out.

776

:

And so they're going to give the most respect to the person who's the most respectful with

their time.

777

:

Do you ever remember, you know, it's maybe more than just one time, but do you ever

remember a moment where you kind of first saw these techniques or just any kind of really

778

:

memorable time where you flipped a witness because you were using these constructive cross

techniques and it made a big difference for you?

779

:

Yes, recently I got in a case and I think I was the third lawyer in representing my client

and it was set, uh I got in and the trial dates were already set and it was like a four

780

:

day trial.

781

:

We were fighting about custody and I had the man and there was a guardian ad litem in

place and I don't know if they have those across the country but this is a person that the

782

:

court has appointed as an expert to come in, investigate everything and make a

recommendation.

783

:

this person had made a recommendation that my client should receive less than standard

visitation.

784

:

So less than every other weekend type deal.

785

:

And by using these methods, uh I'll skip to the end result and then I can tell you how we

did it if you want, but by using these methods, the judge actually ruled, my client got 50

786

:

% time with his son.

787

:

And so that was a big deal.

788

:

yeah, judges,

789

:

If you think about, appoint these experts, so they really trust them a lot and they want

to protect them and everything.

790

:

And more often than not, they follow their recommendations.

791

:

So to get something like that was a big deal.

792

:

And I can tell you more about it if you want to.

793

:

I would love that.

794

:

Okay.

795

:

So what we did is we went in and at first we started off with this guardian I lied and

this expert but really building him up.

796

:

Sir, you've been doing this 30 plus years.

797

:

You've testified in front of this judge a lot.

798

:

You've you know, so he's yeah, everything's yes.

799

:

Yes.

800

:

And then we went into now, sir, you're also a human and humans are not perfect.

801

:

Like sometimes humans get things wrong and sir, would agree with me.

802

:

there could be other experts in the same position.

803

:

They could look at these same facts and have a different opinion.

804

:

So reasonable experts can differ.

805

:

And then uh we started going into, sir, we had facts prepared that he wasn't aware of, God

blessing.

806

:

And so we were able to say, now sir, you didn't know about that.

807

:

And that could have impacted your opinion.

808

:

You didn't know about this.

809

:

And that could have impacted.

810

:

And then finally, closing argument, my argument was not attacking him.

811

:

It was actually building him up.

812

:

was, judge, this is a great guardian that lied to me.

813

:

He does a great job in this case, judge.

814

:

He's just missed it.

815

:

Let me tell you why he didn't know about these things and he didn't.

816

:

And because of that, the judge ruled out.

817

:

That is actually what we talk about when it comes to like that yes and method because the

yes is the boosting the witness up and you did it with Jean when you're reliable, you're a

818

:

grandma, you love your family and then you anded her basically using that and to connect

it to a fact that works for you and in your case.

819

:

You know, it's really hard to uh make someone out to be this crazy villain unless the

facts really show that that's another thing.

820

:

But when you have somebody like this or somebody that's a well-respected professional, uh

it's really hard to just go out there and make them look completely incompetent or

821

:

incompetent at all.

822

:

But when you do that, you build them up and then you start pointing out the inequities in

that particular case with these particular facts.

823

:

then I think that's where it's like, well, yeah, just like you said, no one's perfect.

824

:

No one's perfect.

825

:

And sometimes people are put at a disadvantage when they're not, I mean, like that's the

whole thing.

826

:

So it's not like full on, it's not attacking them at all.

827

:

It's just pointing out.

828

:

It's like you're there going back to that idea of like, you're there as the guide to the

facts, right?

829

:

The guide to the story.

830

:

And it's such a nice way where you're not, you know, putting yourself front and center

831

:

or trying to scream and yell about don't believe them, don't believe them.

832

:

You're just saying, Hey, look, these are the facts.

833

:

And, and put it together, you know, you know, the answer, because you're trusting, you

know, you're trusting your judges.

834

:

And, I think same people with when they have a jury, they should trust their jury, that

they can put those things together.

835

:

And they'll see it, they'll put that equation together.

836

:

And they'll see what, you know, what that with the, with the sum is, or whatever you want

to put it.

837

:

Yeah.

838

:

They're going to come to it as humans, whether judges or juries, we will stick with a

conclusion that we reach on our own.

839

:

But you start forcing a conclusion on me.

840

:

I'm ready to fight.

841

:

You know, I'm going to push back.

842

:

And one, for example, one chapter I thought about making on this was using the fact that

Jean was retired after 32 years, she retired.

843

:

I could have blown up the fact like basically trying to say,

844

:

you didn't have the stamina or the skills to keep doing it anymore.

845

:

And I thought that would be too negative.

846

:

Like you don't want to come attack a grandma.

847

:

Mm-hmm.

848

:

So I'm going to.

849

:

it's not going to be perceived well.

850

:

Yeah, right Especially when it's it's about really the the two parents, right?

851

:

I think also it's just like oh, you know You're putting her in the line of fire for no

reason.

852

:

Yeah

853

:

I love that because that was that was the whole thing is just like, Hey, I know that

grandma that's part of the equation, but we've got to narrow that scope.

854

:

What is this really about?

855

:

And this is your parents, you know, that doesn't mean grandma can't be involved.

856

:

It's just, we got to focus on and that's I think that was the best thing that you were

able to do with this testimony is get that refocus of the case and not get it and you

857

:

know, not

858

:

blow it up or get it out of hand.

859

:

That's such a nice, tangible like goal that I think you were really successful at.

860

:

I think you have just summed up the closing argument for this case.

861

:

I want to bring it back to you, Gene, because for anybody, even for me, I've been acting

since I was in the fifth grade.

862

:

Performing in front of an audience is still difficult.

863

:

And trial attorneys, that is also their job in terms of things that they might have not

even learned about or received any support when it comes to...

864

:

uh

865

:

law school.

866

:

So with a lot on the line, especially, uh you know, it can be nerve wracking.

867

:

But at least as an actor, Jean, how do you manage your anxiety so that you can perform on

stage or in front of a camera?

868

:

I don't always manage it, but I meditate and I do breathing exercises and those kinds of

things.

869

:

I think also if I can talk to somebody who's involved in whatever it is I'm doing that day

or um a new show or something like that, um if I can talk to somebody who's in charge and

870

:

just get more information about

871

:

what's going to happen and how it's going to happen and what's expected of me and all of

those kinds of things.

872

:

That calms me down because now I know what I'm walking into.

873

:

It's when you don't know when it's all, you know, you get on the set or you get to the

theater and, you know, you sit down and everybody at the table but you has everything

874

:

memorized on the first read through.

875

:

I remember being a young actress and having that.

876

:

happened to me and thinking I will never do this again.

877

:

I'm going to come in, you know, closed off book because that's what they did.

878

:

That's how they prepared and took care of their anxiety.

879

:

So that's helped a lot.

880

:

Shane, what do you do with your jitters?

881

:

I know we didn't have this question ahead of time for you, but do you feel those?

882

:

That's a great question for lawyers.

883

:

Yeah.

884

:

Always have that fear, you know, and that anxiety.

885

:

One thing that helps me is really putting things in perspective, meaning, you know, with

the client's cases, I didn't create these problems.

886

:

These aren't my kids or my grandkids.

887

:

You know, my job is to come in as an advocate and do the very best that I can for them.

888

:

But it's the judge's job to make the decision.

889

:

I've got to bring out the facts and,

890

:

try to persuade, but it's on the judge.

891

:

And then I would say from a personal standpoint, exercise is important, getting enough

sleep, em eating healthy and everything, not drinking too much.

892

:

I mean, I've done all those other things guys and they don't work.

893

:

em this is the way you have to do it.

894

:

I've found to be able to function.

895

:

Yeah, absolutely.

896

:

I mean, I know that I'm sure, especially in family law, there's a lot of emotion that you

could potentially take on.

897

:

But obviously, taking care of yourself first and foremost is going to make you a better

advocate and be able to sustain everything that you have on your shoulders.

898

:

I was just going to say, also think that uh for Shane, even though he's ah using the word

advocate and not really, he's leaving it in the hands of the judge, as an advocate, you

899

:

already have taken a side.

900

:

And so, yeah, and so walking in there knowing I'm fighting for this, this person, this

outcome, these things.

901

:

And that's the same thing that actors do.

902

:

look at every scene and figure out who's going to win this time.

903

:

And you're fighting for something.

904

:

And that also, it makes it exciting for the judge and helps them invest in the story.

905

:

m

906

:

as a performer, as a lawyer, it excites you.

907

:

know, that fight in your belly is the thing that makes you uh a good lawyer.

908

:

Congratulations, you came in with a good fight.

909

:

You were an excellent witness, I'll tell you why.

910

:

Well, thank you.

911

:

Shane, if you had to cross this witness tomorrow, what's something you would take away

from today?

912

:

So after talking today, I almost am wondering, I'd like to get you guys thoughts.

913

:

Using this method, gives us a lot of control and we can kind of bring things back in

bounce.

914

:

But after hearing her and she would have gone off about how as a grandmother, she should

have been caring and she's the reliable one and everything.

915

:

Maybe I should have spun off and let her do that because while I understand that and

everything, that's not what the law is.

916

:

And that would have been very helpful for my client.

917

:

So.

918

:

When I was or we were all creating this because we get to do a lot of creative writing

with these cases now and we talked to talk to other lawyers to kind of give us some ideas,

919

:

but the idea was this the I that the grandmother was pushing this more than the son and

that's the problem, right?

920

:

That's the problem is that this isn't this isn't the son saying this the actual father

921

:

This is the grandmother that's pushing for this.

922

:

And, and, and that's where I imagine that the problem for poor Sandra stills is, is that

she isn't one of the parents.

923

:

Um, and, and so I think you could go, I think the more she starts talking, that's why,

when I heard I am the, reliability, I'm like, go tell us about how you are the only one

924

:

that can care for these kids.

925

:

You're the, it, it stops there because these two parents are

926

:

can't do what they, you know, can't spend the time to do it.

927

:

I don't think that's a bad thing.

928

:

I don't think that's a problem at all.

929

:

But Olivia, any thoughts on on on that?

930

:

totally agree.

931

:

I'm glad you brought that up because there was multiple times where was like, she's making

it about her.

932

:

Wait a second.

933

:

It started to make me question who was actually in this case, but that's perfect, right?

934

:

Because she is kind of going off and making it about her and boosting herself up.

935

:

And uh no, I think that that's definitely a fantastic takeaway for sure.

936

:

That's what I was thinking as a listener.

937

:

I agree.

938

:

If I could recross her, I would try to blow those points up more.

939

:

That's good because that was my intention.

940

:

I had direction from Steve that Granny did want to take over.

941

:

No, and I think that's, um, you know, anytime you can get, you know, playing this myself,

a good witness, I think has to can, can, uh, show that they're emotionally involved.

942

:

Like they're, they're, they're, they're, care.

943

:

They obviously want to do that, but there's always that, that danger of like, I don't want

to say unhinged, but going a little bit too far.

944

:

And I think if it's an opposing witness and you can get them to

945

:

go a little bit too far.

946

:

uh You know, and I think that can be to your advantage.

947

:

I mean, how about this?

948

:

The one thing I do know prepping witnesses for the cases that we prep them for, civil

defense attorneys, the ones that are working for the insurance companies, when they're

949

:

dealing with people with traumatic brain injuries or any kind of emotional issues, my God,

they do this all the time.

950

:

They try to, and it's a real, it's heartbreaking because these people are already

susceptible

951

:

to having a hard time controlling themselves because it's physically, know, their body is

not allowing them to do that anymore.

952

:

Their brains are not allowing them to do they're irritable.

953

:

And, and I don't mean that to denigrate anybody.

954

:

It's just it's the medical facts.

955

:

And so the civil defense attorneys, we see that as a tactic all the time and depositions

that they're pushing these people and, and

956

:

little digs to get at them.

957

:

And obviously in this case, you don't have to do any digging.

958

:

You don't have to make yourself, um you know, you know, I want to say icky, but icky like

that.

959

:

um You could just do it just by, you know, feeding her feeding her those questions and

building on that.

960

:

And then that way you don't look, you know, you're staying out of the fray still, but

you're, you're giving her the, the, the, uh the ammunition that she wants, because she

961

:

wants to tell that story really bad.

962

:

And, and when I heard that,

963

:

ah When I heard that I am the reliability that for me was, in fact, that's my one thing,

Olivia.

964

:

That's one of my one of my takeaways today is one of my favorite parts of today was I am

the reliability.

965

:

I love that.

966

:

But anyways, Shane, I don't know if that helps at all.

967

:

But just from our experience, like

968

:

Jean, anything that stood out for you today, knowing that this is not necessarily your

wheelhouse, but what did you find from today?

969

:

First of all, it was just great fun and Shane was so good.

970

:

I did feel as though he was coming at me and coming after me.

971

:

But it was hard not to be defensive.

972

:

um I couldn't just answer the question because I didn't feel as though the question was

complete enough.

973

:

I needed to give more information in there.

974

:

And I know that witnesses aren't supposed to do that.

975

:

answer the question but he was pushing me good and I don't know how this case turns out.

976

:

know, I'm not, Granny's not feeling so good over here.

977

:

Jane, I just want to say that that was so like the way that we like to play and really

with a lot of honesty.

978

:

I think the way you played it today was so, so honest and and uh it was so beautiful as

like seeing you play that character.

979

:

And that's what's going to happen.

980

:

Yeah, even when we're even when we're Yeah, even when we're playing those experts that

have like, you know, they want to tell that story too.

981

:

And they're to look for those opportunities.

982

:

And sometimes yes and no is not enough.

983

:

to, uh, to, to, answer that completely.

984

:

And I think you didn't do anything other than what I think Sandra stills would have done.

985

:

And that was fantastic.

986

:

Shane, where can people find you or book you to speak at events?

987

:

Yeah, so shanehenrylaw.com, all my information's on there and that'd be the place.

988

:

How can we connect with you, Dean?

989

:

Well, I'm on Facebook.

990

:

I have a wonderful Facebook page called the Jean Bruce Scott Archive.

991

:

A friend and I put it together and post at least three or four times a week covering my

whole career and what's coming up.

992

:

So that's a great place to find me.

993

:

And then if you want to see some of my credits and what my career has been, you can go to

imdb.com, Jean Bruce Scott, and you'll find me.

994

:

To all our listeners, if you're enjoying what you're seeing, please give us a review,

follow us.

995

:

And when I say give us a review, please give us a five star review.

996

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helps us out so much reach more lawyers and more people that would be interested in this.

997

:

And tell your colleagues about this show too and get them to follow us as well.

998

:

That is the end of today's experiment and we hope you take the best of it to court with

you.

999

:

See you all next time on Cross Lab.

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Please like and subscribe to CrossLab wherever you get your podcasts or webcasts.

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If you really liked this podcast, please write a review.

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If you didn't, this podcast has been Paul Hollywood's Baker's Podcast.

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Thank you for listening to CrossLab, a trial house consulting production powered by

LawPods.

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To get free resources for your next trial, go to houseimprov.com, H-A-U-S.

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Improv.com.

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This program is written and produced by Steve Homan and Olivia Espinosa and edited by Mark

Crespo.

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The discussions and content presented in this podcast are for educational and

informational purposes only.

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They are not a substitute for professional legal advice, guidance, or representation.

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Participation in this podcast, including cross-examinations and feedback, takes place in a

simulated training environment with fictional witnesses and scenarios.

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01:21:46,283 --> 01:21:50,366

Any resemblance to real persons, cases, or events is purely coincidental.

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The views expressed by the hosts and guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect

the opinions

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of any organization or entities they may be affiliated with.

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House Team Productions and Law Pods are not responsible for the accuracy, outcomes, or

application of any content or strategies discussed during the podcast.

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If you have any specific legal questions or concerns, we encourage you to consult with a

licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

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About the Podcast

Cross Lab
Experiment here, take the best to court.
Cross Lab is where trial attorneys get hands-on with the art of constructive cross-examination.

Hosted by career actors and expert storytellers Steve Hohman and Olivia Espinosa—who’ve played mock witnesses in over 1,500 cross-examinations—this podcast is packed with the POV you’re missing and won’t find anywhere else.

Join us as we bring together your attorney peers for realistic cross simulations, where they’ll share their trials (and errors), personal insights, and real-world experiences. You’ll also discover how different approaches to the same witness can impact both their testimony and your jury’s perception.

BONUS: No matter where you are in your career, you’ll bank TONS of fresh storytelling strategies, reusable cross chapters, and imagination-sparking word choices for your next depo or trial!

Don’t miss our special Cross-Pollination episodes, where we explore the layers of effective storytelling for audiences, alongside industry collaborators.

Tune in and subscribe to Cross Lab!

About your hosts

Olivia Espinosa

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I’m Olivia Espinosa, a career actor, playwright, and director, fortunate to learn from industry icons like Golden Globe Winner Lily Gladstone, “Queen of Broadway” Idina Menzel and Tony Award-Winning director Tina Landau.

Amplifying voices that need to be heard- on stage and in the courtroom, is my mission.

My partner Steve Hohman and I have been cross-examined over 1,500 times by attorneys in 30 states, Canada, and the UK. That’s as much, if not more, than any expert witness out there. The difference? We want to use our powers for good. After sharpening our skills as realistic witnesses in Roger Dodd’s Trial Skills Clinic and in our private work, we know what makes a witness and jury tick.

Since 2022, we’ve consulted on cases resulting in over $38.1 MILLION in awards and a full acquittal– eliminating a 100-year prison sentence.

Cross Lab Podcast is based on my 30+ years of experience in storytelling combined with my work in the legal arena. We’ll share the techniques that make a difference- because when it comes down to it, your client’s future rests on how well you tell their story.

Steve Hohman

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Hi, I’m Steve Hohman. Early in my theater career, I took a five-year detour as an auto insurance claims adjuster. Faced with upset customers and no training, I initially mimicked colleagues who argued until customers gave up. But my blood pressure and unresolved claims piled up. Then, I turned to tools from theater—active listening and "yes, and"—shifting focus to the customer. The results were transformative: claims were resolved, and customers became cooperative.

Later, working with Roger Dodd, co-author of Cross-Examination: Science and Techniques, I realized I’d been using constructive cross-examination all along. Since 2022, we’ve consulted on cases resulting in over $38 million in awards and a full acquittal, eliminating a 100-year prison sentence. We’ve been cross-examined over 1,500 times by attorneys across 30 states, Canada, and the UK—as much as any expert witness. The difference? We use our powers for good.

Now, on our podcast Cross Lab, we bring these experiences and accomplishments to you, offering valuable insights and tools you can use to elevate your own legal practice.

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